Composition of collateral rotations of a planet

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical modeling of the rotation of a vector pointing to the sun as a planet orbits and rotates. Participants explore the implications of using rotation matrices to describe this motion, particularly in a co-rotating coordinate system with the body in question.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks guidance on deriving the rotation matrix for a vector pointing to the sun in a co-rotating frame.
  • Another suggests that the problem involves a composition of several rotation matrices and encourages rephrasing the question to clarify the rotations involved.
  • A link to a Wikipedia article on the position of the sun is provided as a potential resource.
  • A participant illustrates the problem using the Earth-Sun system, emphasizing the need to account for both the Earth's rotation and its orbit around the sun, while presuming a circular orbit.
  • It is noted that the composition of rotation matrices does not commute, indicating that the order of rotations affects the outcome, and a proper derivation should start with the equations of motion.
  • Another participant reinforces the non-commutative nature of matrix multiplication in three dimensions, highlighting the complexity of the problem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the approach to solving the problem, particularly regarding the use of rotation matrices and the implications of their non-commutative nature. There is no consensus on a specific method or solution.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of modeling rotations in three dimensions, particularly the dependence on the order of operations and the need for a thorough understanding of the equations of motion. Some assumptions about the nature of the orbit (e.g., circular) are made but not universally accepted.

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A body is orbiting the sun and rotates about its axis (z). My coordinate system is co-rotating with the body. I need to determine how does a vector that points to the sun change after a certain period of time. Initially the sun vector lies in the xz plane. Basically I need to find the rotation matrix that I can apply to the vector. I have been googling for over a day without any result. Can you point me to an article or book with a good explanation and derivation or explain how this is done? Thank you.
 
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It is probably a composition of several rotation matrices.
You need to rephrase your question in terms of the various rotations involved.
Doing so you will probably see how to calculate your overall rotation matrix.
Eventually, this might help us too.
 
I will make an example. The Sun-Earth system - the Earth rotates about its own axis and at the same time it also orbits the Sun. I choose a coordinate system that corotates with the Earth (z axis is the spin axis) and I need to find how the direction vector to the Sun evolves with time. Unlike Earth - Sun system I presume circular orbit.

For example at t0 = 0, the non-normalized Sun direction vector is (1,0,1) and I want to know what is this vector at some time t (given the ω rotation angular speed and Ω orbiting angular speed).

(The same problem can be viewed from another coordinate system - Sun centric, where the z axis is perpendicular to the orbital plane and x-axis is the direction to the Earth at t0. In this case I need to know the time evolution of a normal to the Earth surface given at t0.)
The Earth - Sun system is just an illustration of the rotations involved. I need this for a general case of a body orbiting another body while rotating about its axis.

This cannot be done as composition of rotation matrices, they do not commute and the results depend on what rotation I do first. I believe the proper derivation must start with the equations of motion.
 
Last edited:
Composition of reference frames does not necessarily commute in three dimensions. Matrix multiplication is not commutative: A*B ≠ B*A in general.
 

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