News Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

[polyb]

I've been hearing a lot about this book lately and apparently it has topped the NYT's best seller list. Having looked into some interviews I decided it was a a good idea to pass it along and see what kind of feedback the forum would give. Here is a quote from the author's site:

Economic hit men (EHMs) are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars. They funnel money from the World Bank, U.S. Agency for International Development, and other foreign “aid” organizations into the coffers of huge corporations and the pockets of a few wealthy families who control the planet's natural resources. Their tools include fraudulent financial reports, rigged elections, payoffs, extortion, sex, and murder. They play a game as old as empire, but one that has taken on new and terrifying dimensions during this time of globalization.

I should know; I was an EHM.

http://www.johnperkins.org/pagina_nueva_3.htm

The rest of the preface and prologue are on his site. Here is a link to a book review:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/books/article/0,1299,DRMN_63_3388037,00.html

And here is a short interview:

http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/jackowski01192005/

Given the claims made by the author, it seems to me that when we are to consider politics, once again, the key perspective is always one of economics. It can be never be stated enough that politics and economics are inseparable. To say otherwise is a fallacy and tremendous error of judgement.

Comments?

 

[misskitty]

In this day and age, I'm not surprised these guy actually exsist. Its the age old combination of sex, politics and money with a modern day twist. Nowadays we need to have some interesting piece of literature about the kind of economic games our government plays with other countries. I'd be surpirsed to learn how these guys don't get caught. There has got to be some legal loophole they get out through, either that or they are just sickeningly good at what they do.

 

[SOS2008]

Without reading the book--in all fairness, my first thought is that state governments have been ripping off international finance institution/programs forever. Also state governments have been counterfeiting U.S. currency (only limited organizations, such as state governments have the resources to do this) to such an extent the U.S. had to change the currency. And heck, even the institutions themselves are up to no good, i.e., the UN oil-for-food scandal. In view of Haliburton, I guess our own VP is in on this? Who needs to hire EHMs to do the job? - It’s such a saturated scam. I do agree the global nature of the economy has changed the way the world operates, and that money is tied to everything. Just look at the exchanges made by corporations without regard to what is being sold to whom, trade agreements, etc.

 

[franznietzsche]

In this day and age, I'm not surprised these guy actually exsist. Its the age old combination of sex, politics and money with a modern day twist. Nowadays we need to have some interesting piece of literature about the kind of economic games our government plays with other countries. I'd be surpirsed to learn how these guys don't get caught. There has got to be some legal loophole they get out through, either that or they are just sickeningly good at what they do.

Its probably called diplomatic immunity.

With that, you can smuggle heroine into another country, with complete impunity. You could be caught handing the heroine over to a dealer, cash in hand, and be immune.

 

[misskitty]

Humans are so good at pulling off scams though. The government probably though that if everyday Joe Shmoes can get away with coning people, why can't they? Just on a much bigger playing field.

 

[misskitty]

Its probably called diplomatic immunity.

With that, you can smuggle heroine into another country, with complete impunity. You could be caught handing the heroine over to a dealer, cash in hand, and be immune.

Very true. More than likely how they get away with it. If they don't then chances are they get charged with possesion with intent to sell, smuggling, and/or money laundering.

 

[polyb]

It has been said many times:

"The rich are different! They have money."

With a whopping load of cash one can get away with murder and face no consequences, except a bill to pay off the right people.

So apparently it comes down to greed, that is the only value that is left. Talk about reductio ad absurdum.

 

[ray b]

steal a little go to jail
steal a lot
and they make you a king

 

[loseyourname]

It's guys like this that are the reason I never give to aid organizations.

 

[misskitty]

steal a little go to jail
steal a lot
and they make you a king

Thats a pretty good saying. I've never heard that. It could be said the importance of the economic hit men revolves around that little saying. I mean, seriously, why would the government want to have the most money, goods, and resources? Its simple: To have pull over everything else and whatever you want. I like that saying.

 

[ray b]

Thats a pretty good saying. I've never heard that. It could be said the importance of the economic hit men revolves around that little saying. I mean, seriously, why would the government want to have the most money, goods, and resources? Its simple: To have pull over everything else and whatever you want. I like that saying.

paraphrased from a bob dylan song
because I couldnot remember the exact line

 

[Smurf]

Ha! And all along you thought I was crazy! but as soon as someone publishes a book about it EVERYONES ON BOARD WITH THE IDEA! gah!

 

[Burnsys]

Confesions from the WINNER OF THE NOBEL PRIZE IN ECONOMICS AND EX World Bank’s former Chief Economist’s

Stiglitz helped translate one from bureaucratise, a "Country Assistance Strategy." There’s an Assistance Strategy for every poorer nation, designed, says the World Bank, after careful in-country investigation. But according to insider Stiglitz, the Bank’s staff ‘investigation’ consists of close inspection of a nation’s 5-star hotels.

Each nation’s economy is individually analyzed, then, says Stiglitz, the Bank hands every minister the same exact four-step program.

When a nation is down and out, the IMF takes advantage and squeezes the last pound of blood out of them. They turn up the heat until, finally, the whole cauldron blows up. It has condemned people to death. They don't care if people live or die. The policies undermine democracy...it's a little like the Middle Ages or the Opium Wars" (Greg Palast, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, p.50-53)

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=78&row=1 .

The World Bank and the Secret Argentine Plan
Transcript of Interview of Greg Palast, Journalist for BBC and Observer, London, by Alex Jones
http://www.infowars.com/palast.htm

 

[Polly]

yeah the opium war, we were bullied and beaten, we swallowed the blood, the broken teeth, the pride and slowly tried to find our footing. Took us 150 years, that's all.

 

[misskitty]

Could someone tell me what the IMF stands for?

Anyway, ok so now we have arrived at the general consensus that these guys do exsist adn they go steal money from other countries. How much do these guys steal on average anyway? Where does the money go and what does the government do with it anyway?

Just a guess but: Money probably goes into some unmarked account in Switzerland.

 

[Burnsys]

Could someone tell me what the IMF stands for?

Anyway, ok so now we have arrived at the general consensus that these guys do exsist adn they go steal money from other countries. How much do these guys steal on average anyway? Where does the money go and what does the government do with it anyway?

Just a guess but: Money probably goes into some unmarked account in Switzerland.

Officialy they are there to help the poor countrys.

but in reality what they do is borrow money to the corrupt goverments of poor countrys.. the borrowed money is obiusly stealed by the corrupt politicians... and the bebt is payed by the people... They give such an amount of money so it will be imposible to payback... so then they can start imposing their economic and political reformss, in exchange of more loans...

what stiglitz says is they first "Recomnend" the goverments to privatize all it's basics services... Water , electricity, oil, comunications banks and health state companies, who obiusly is selled to corporations of the countrys who support the IMF or the so called "Civilized Wordl" or 1st world countrys...
Of course the corrupt politicians sell the state companies at very very low prices in exchange of some transfers of money in some Swiss bank accounts..

for example in argentina (My country) Carlos menem government (Now exiled in chile for corruption.) in the 90 selled all our state companies...
Water company to Enron
Oil to YPF (Spain), Shell (USA), ESSO (exxon movil)
Comunications (Motorola USA, Telefonica Spain, Telecom Italy)
Electricity (Edenor, France)
Banks, (Citi, Boston, BBVA, etc.)

Now all this companys are making profit out of the esential needs of all the people of the country,. so they need to take the money back to their countries...

So now what the imf start to impose is the Capital Market Liberalization..In theory, capital market deregulation allows investment but of course... all the investments came from loans from the private banks, to this corporations, and the real money goes out of the country..

then the imf start to impose state spending reduction... and rise of taxes.. for the only objective of destroy the country and push the people below the poverty line.

Actualy what the imf is imposing here in argentina is a rise in the electrical, water and comunications bills...with 50% of people under the poverty line. you can imagine what that would mean.. more people prived of the basics services...

I live in argentina and all that start to happen since the us backed military dictatorship of the 70' who cost us 30.000 death and disapeared people...

Now all the ex militaries of the coup are working in the police.. securirty and inteligence services of the goverment... but of course.. under a "democraticaly elected" goverment, controlled by the imf...

Sorry my english..

 

[misskitty]

Your english is better than some of the people who live in my area.

Anyway, can you say "insanely corrupt"?
Thats a lot of money to be taking from the people just to make a profit.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Money makes the world go round.

 

[kaos]

Luckily for Malaysia Mahathir rejected the IMF. Mahathir got balls .One victory for the small dude.

 

[kaos]

IMF stands for the the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and is the international organization responsible for managing the global financial system and for providing loans to its member states to help alleviate balance of payments problems. Part of its mission is to provide assistance to countries that experience serious economic difficulties.

However it is widely acknowledged that the IMF has failed to help because its policies are unsuitable and in fact has caused even more poverty .

 

[misskitty]

It fits all the characteristics of being corrupt. If the policies are unsuitable and they don't do anything but increase the percentage of poor people in a country, then why is it no one is rewriting the policies so they can work for the people instead of against the people? Heaven forbid they don't get something out of it for themselves.

 

[Burnsys]

It fits all the characteristics of being corrupt. If the policies are unsuitable and they don't do anything but increase the percentage of poor people in a country, then why is it no one is rewriting the policies so they can work for the people instead of against the people? Heaven forbid they don't get something out of it for themselves.

Becouse it's not an imf mistake.. it's on pourpuse.. More poverty in a country more they can control it.. more low are salarys. more cheap are exports and his natural resources.. And all theyr "Free Market" policiess all they do is re distribute the whealt in the country, from the lowest classes to the higher ones,, which are composed of foreing corporations from the countrys that support the imf... 1st world countrys or EX cologinalist countrys..

The imf is a new technic of colonialism... but now they found that is much better and easy if you don't have to use guns...

 

[russ_watters]

Need I remind everyone (again) that global poverty levels continue to drop?

http://www.ncpa.org/iss/int/2002/pd061102f.html

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2002/06/deaton.htm

http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty03/pov03fig03.pdf

http://www.census.gov/prod/2004pubs/p60-226.pdf

Please note, the US's numbers appear higher than one might expect compared to the rest of the world because our numbers are based on higher standards and do not include supplimental income such as welfare. In a country where there is no welfare, food stamps, etc., income and poverty would be synonomous, but in the US they are not. In addition, the definition of poverty in the US gets more stringent with time, so the the numbers reflect perception more than actual improvement in income/living conditions.

 

[Burnsys]

Need I remind everyone (again) that global poverty levels continue to drop?

http://www.ncpa.org/iss/int/2002/pd061102f.html

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/2002/06/deaton.htm

> The poverty line is defined as $2 a day in constant 1985 dollars

> Most of the reduction in poverty is due to rising incomes in China and India since 1980.

The two countrys USA has selected for slave type factorys.. after they economy is destroyed they have legions of unemployments which they can exploit.. the so called reserve army by the bussinesman...

>But poverty has worsened in Africa. And while Latin American poverty rates decreased in the 1970s, they've changed little since then.

I will keep researching on this "world Poverty reduction".

 

[Burnsys]

Becouse it's not an imf mistake.. it's on pourpuse.. More poverty in a country more they can control it.. more low are salarys. more cheap are exports and his natural resources.. And all theyr "Free Market" policiess all they do is re distribute the whealt in the country, from the lowest classes to the higher ones,, which are composed of foreing corporations from the countrys that support the imf... 1st world countrys or EX cologinalist countrys..

The imf is a new technic of colonialism... but now they found that is much better and easy if you don't have to use guns...

Wow,,, look at the news:

http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/03/1724625.php
The news that Paul Wolfowitz, the US deputy defence secretary neo-con hawk, is a leading contender to head the World Bank has sent a frisson of fear down the spines of development experts across the globe.


Seems that paul, defence secretary now is going to "help" to reduce the world poverty. hahhaha..

 

[russ_watters]

Most of the reduction in poverty is due to rising incomes in China and India since 1980.

The two countrys USA has selected for slave type factorys.. after they economy is destroyed they have legions of unemployments which they can exploit.. the so called reserve army by the bussinesman...

Interesting - so "slave type factories" actually reduce poverty? The two countries most "exploited" by the US are improving, while countries we don't "exploit" as much are not. So you're saying exploitation is a good thing? Wait, that doesn't make sense...

 

[Burnsys]

Interesting - so "slave type factories" actually reduce poverty? Wait, that doesn't make sense...

Of course it make sense... suppose you have a country with half of it´s people unemployed... you go to that country with let's say, 100.000 U$S and pay 1 U$S a day to each unemployment to work 10 hours for you... that will help to reduce poverty and to reduce the unemployment rate... of course. you are paying 1 dolar for 10 hours of works. that is very close to slavery.

 

[russ_watters]

Of course it make sense... suppose you have a country with half of it´s people unemployed... you go to that country with let's say, 100.000 U$S and pay 1 U$S a day to each unemployment to work 10 hours for you... that will help to reduce poverty and to reduce the unemployment rate... of course. you are paying 1 dolar for 10 hours of works. that is very close to slavery.

I'm not following - how is it slavery to pay someone? How is exploitation to give someone who is starving to death a job? How is it a bad thing to improve the conditions in a country?

What twisted perceptions you have (and your perceptions are not unusual).

 

[Burnsys]

I'm not following - how is it slavery to pay someone? How is exploitation to give someone who is starving to death a job? How is it a bad thing to improve the conditions in a country?

What twisted perceptions you have (and your perceptions are not unusual).

How is exploitation to give someone who is starving to death a job?
nice way to look at it. but let's take a look from another point of view
You are abusing those who are starving and payng them much much less that you will pay to someone who isn't starving. just becouse he is starving and he will accept anything., he will even work only for food. Why don't you pay starving people, "international Salary price" just like with oil? anyway. you are not improving the conditions of a country... you first destroy economicaly those country so then you can came and pay a missery salary tho the desesperate people who will work 10 hours for 1 dolar.. and of course, for each 1$ corporations pay to this people, they make like 100 U$S dolars selling their products in other markets.. that is explotation and abuse..

You are not helping them. you are taking advantage of them

 

[russ_watters]

but let's take a look from another point of view

Ok...

You are abusing those who are starving and payng them much much less that you will pay to someone who isn't starving.

How (why)? You keep claiming it is exploitation, but you are not explaining it. How/why is it exploitation to pay one person one amount and another person a different amount?

just becouse he is starving and he will accept anything., he will even work only for food.

So what? What is wrong with that? Explain.

Why don't you pay starving people, "international Salary price" just like with oil?

Simple: labor is not (yet) a true international market, therefore supply and demand doesn't cross international borders.

Is that what this is about? The economics thing again? It appears you have a way that you would like economics to work and the trouble is that it simply doesn't work that way. And the fact of the matter is, this way is working: it is simply not arguable. If poverty is decreasing as a direct result of our actions, then that's a good thing. Could it be better? Sure - there is always better. But it is simply not arguable that it is bad.

you are not improving the conditions of a country...

How can you say that? You admit that poverty is decreasing in those countries! How can you not call a decrease in poverty an improvement?!?

you first destroy economicaly those country ...

Hehe - sure. Why don't you prove that. Show me how the conditions were better before we started giving people jobs in China. Tell me what specifically we did to destroy the Chinese economy before we started to improve it by pouring money into it. You can't because that is simply a figment of your imagination and you know it.

and of course, for each 1$ corporations pay to this people, they make like 100 U$S dolars selling their products in other markets.. that is explotation and abuse..

How do you figure? Where is it written that a corporation is not allowed to profit or needs to make only a certan profit? Again, you've got a bad case of the 'spostas'. Its 'sposta be that way. Get with reality - it simply isn't that way.

You are not helping them. you are taking advantage of them

Well, ok. If that's the way you need to contort the logic, I understand you a lot better now:

-People are poor, unemployed, and starving.
-Americans give them jobs with low pay.
-People are no longer poor, unemployed, and starving.

You consider all of the above to be a bad thing simply because it allows some Americans to get rich. That's awfully, awfully spiteful. Your hatred of America is so deep that you would allow other people to die if it meant Americans were a little less rich! Sick.

 

[russ_watters]

There is an irony here I never picked up on before: With all the talk of socialism/communism being a positive thing in limited doses, its ironic that internationally, economics cannot be anything but capitalism unless we go to a one-world government. Capitalism is the natural order of economics.

Burnsys, you don't want anyone dictating economic policy internationally, and yet thats exactly what you are trying to do!

 

[misskitty]

I don't think there is any way to prove that its abuse and extortion to give someone a job in which they earn money and buy food. Making the living conditions better. Its a contradicting statement.

People think just because there are countries in this world who have a chance to export jobs and make the lives of their foreign employees better and making money while doing it are the most aweful disgusting things on this planet. I bet the person who is being employed and making a wage which he can buy food with might have something to say about that. Now nobody ever said that the wages were fair. Jobs are exported because other countries have few (or no) labour laws. Therefore less money is spent on wages and benefits and such.

Russ has a point, you can't dictate international economics. The courses taken by the economic cycle are population driven, that's how it is. You can't change that. Good luck trying to prove your arguement.

 

[Burnsys]

Ok... How (why)? You keep claiming it is exploitation, but you are not explaining it. How/why is it exploitation to pay one person one amount and another person a different amount?

Becouse both persons are doing the same work.

just becouse he is starving and he will accept anything., he will even work only for food.
So what? What is wrong with that? Explain.

Well have you think that maybe corporations would benefit from a lot of people starving, and what would happen if for example china would like to rise the minimun wage? corporations are so big and attain so much power they can extort goverments to do what they want...

Simple: labor is not (yet) a true international market, therefore supply and demand doesn't cross international borders.

I was being ironic about international Salary prices.. and yes supply and demand of work do corss international border.. there is a lot of supply in china and a lot of demand in USA for example...

Is that what this is about? The economics thing again? It appears you have a way that you would like economics to work and the trouble is that it simply doesn't work that way. And the fact of the matter is, this way is working: it is simply not arguable. If poverty is decreasing as a direct result of our actions, then that's a good thing. Could it be better? Sure - there is always better. But it is simply not arguable that it is bad.

a system who has billions of people starving obiusly is not working right.
and poverty may be reduced in countrys like china, becouse of american investments,, but where do all the corporations profits came from?? they invest 100.000 dolars in china and they sell their products by 1.000.000 dolars. in capitalism for one to become richer, another has to become poorer..

How can you say that? You admit that poverty is decreasing in those countries! How can you not call a decrease in poverty an improvement?!?

yes improvement for USA 100% improvement for china 10%.

you first destroy economicaly those country ...
Hehe - sure. Why don't you prove that. Show me how the conditions were better before we started giving people jobs in China. Tell me what specifically we did to destroy the Chinese economy before we started to improve it by pouring money into it. You can't because that is simply a figment of your imagination and you know it.

i was talking generaly but that is the subject of this thread, let me quote you some of it:
¨
"Economic hit men (EHMs) are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars. They funnel money from the World Bank, U.S. Agency for International Development, and other foreign “aid” organizations into the coffers of huge corporations and the pockets of a few wealthy families"

"My job, she said, was “to encourage world leaders to become part of a vast network that promotes U.S. commercial interests. In the end, those leaders become ensnared in a web of debt that ensures their loyalty. We can draw on them whenever we desire—to satisfy our political, economic, or military needs. In turn, they bolster their political positions by bringing industrial parks, power plants, and airports to their people. The owners of U.S. engineering and construction companies become fabulously wealthy.”

"Executives at our most respected companies hire people at near-slave wages to toil under inhuman conditions in Asian sweatshops. Oil companies wantonly pump toxins down rain forest rivers, consciously killing people, animals, and plants and committing genocide among ancient cultures. "

"The income ratio of the one-fifth of the world’s population in the wealthiest countries to the one-fifth in the poorest went from 30:1 in 1960 to 74:1 in 1995."

http://www.johnperkins.org/pagina_nueva_3.htm

How do you figure? Where is it written that a corporation is not allowed to profit or needs to make only a certan profit?

it's not written but i think it should be...

Again, you've got a bad case of the 'spostas'. Its 'sposta be that way. Get with reality - it simply isn't that way. Well, ok. If that's the way you need to contort the logic, I understand you a lot better now:

-People are poor, unemployed, and starving.
-Americans give them jobs with low pay.
-People are no longer poor, unemployed, and starving.

You consider all of the above to be a bad thing simply because it allows some Americans to get rich. That's awfully, awfully spiteful. Your hatred of America is so deep that you would allow other people to die if it meant Americans were a little less rich! Sick.

some americans which are the top rich americans not the avergare americans. those who loss their jobs becouse they where tranfered to china, India etc.
i am not saying that other people should die, i am saying they should be payed correctly acordnig to they work.,. not they need...

 

[Moonbear]

People think just because there are countries in this world who have a chance to export jobs and make the lives of their foreign employees better and making money while doing it are the most aweful disgusting things on this planet. I bet the person who is being employed and making a wage which he can buy food with might have something to say about that. Now nobody ever said that the wages were fair. Jobs are exported because other countries have few (or no) labour laws. Therefore less money is spent on wages and benefits and such.

To add to what you and Russ are saying here, IF there was no cost savings in exporting the jobs (i.e., if workers elsewhere were paid the same as workers in the U.S., as Burnsys seems to be arguing should be done), then the economic reality is the companies would not bother to export those jobs. So, do we pay people in those countries less than workers in the U.S., which provides a benefit to them (food on their table) AND a benefit to the company exporting the job (high profits), or do we not pay the people in those countries anything and keep all the jobs in the U.S. where neither the people in those other countries nor the companies benefit, other than to avoid the added expense and hassle of running the company out of more than one country for no added profitability? From an economic standpoint, those are the options.

To call it exploitation to give someone a job for a lower salary because they live in a place with a lower cost of living overall would be pretty much the same as saying it's exploitation to give someone a job in the midwest of the US, where cost of living is fairly low, a lower salary than someone living in a large coastal city where cost of living is quite high.

 

[Burnsys]

Russ has a point, you can't dictate international economics. The courses taken by the economic cycle are population driven, that's how it is. You can't change that. Good luck trying to prove your arguement.

They are not population driven. they are dictated by the imf, the WB and the biggest multinational corporations..

 

[russ_watters]

Becouse both persons are doing the same work.

What does that have to do with anything? You are the one who argued in another thread that people should not pay the same amount for the same item. You can't have it both ways.

Again, Burnsys - that's how economic works. That's reality and there is nothing inherrently moral or immoral about it.

You are abusing those who are starving and payng them much much less that you will pay to someone who isn't starving.

Again, why? You keep stating these things as if they are a priori givens. They are not. You need to prove them. My point/justification is simple: providing someone who has no food with a means of getting food is a good thing.

Well have you think that maybe corporations would benefit from a lot of people starving...

Corporations benefit from the fact that there is a lot of poverty in the world. That is true. But in the same act that causes them to benefit, the poor also benefit. This is one of the beautiful things about capitalism: the corporations don't have to care abou the little guy to improve conditions for him.

...and what would happen if for example china would like to rise the minimun wage? corporations are so big and attain so much power they can extort goverments to do what they want...

If China implimented/raised a minimum wage, corporations would have to pay more money. Simple as that. You really think an American company can bully a country like China?

...and yes supply and demand of work do corss international border.. there is a lot of supply in china and a lot of demand in USA for example...

Yeah, I didn't say that right: what I meant was there is an inequity between the supply and demand in different places. The inequity for things like oil is very low and thus prices are relatively consistent - the inequity for labor is extremely high, so prices can vary vastly from one place to another. The global labor market is not mature.

a system who has billions of people starving obiusly is not working right.

That system is called "communism" - you're arguing against the wrong thing. Capitalism is causing the improvement, not causing the problem.

and poverty may be reduced in countrys like china, becouse of american investments,, but where do all the corporations profits came from?? they invest 100.000 dolars in china and they sell their products by 1.000.000 dolars.

As a matter of fact, the money comes from me. You've heard of the trade deficit, right? Its a big issue for the US and it means that vast sums of money are flowing from the US to China.

...in capitalism for one to become richer, another has to become poorer..

We've had that discussion before. It quite simply isn't true. Heck, the numbers are here in this thread: poor Chinese are getting richer and Americans are getting richer. Who then is getting poorer?

..yes improvement for USA 100% improvement for china 10%.

So what? An improvement is still an improvement!

i was talking generaly but that is the subject of this thread, let me quote you some of it...

That specific thing is a crime and is irrelevant to the question I asked. Your claim was that the system of capitalism is causing this problem. Someone committing a crime is no obeying the system.

it's not written but i think it should be...

why, Why, WHY, WHY, *WHY*?? You keep making these assertions. Tell me why. Why is it not ok that a company profits a lot while a an individual profits a little (caveat: a little in absolute terms, but in relative terms, the individual who had no income and now has $1 a day has improved his income by an infinite amount)?

some americans which are the top rich americans not the avergare americans. those who loss their jobs becouse they where tranfered to china, India etc.

That's another factually incorrect statement. Unemployment in the US reamains at near historical lows. Even with a lot of jobs being shipped overseas, the economy is still humming right along. Besides - don't you want us to fail?

i am not saying that other people should die, i am saying they should be payed correctly acordnig to they work...

The alternative to American companies shipping their jobs overseas and paying people enough to eat is for American companies to not ship their jobs overseas, causing people to starve to death. You have made your preference abundantly clear.

 

[misskitty]

Burnsys, wher eso you think these companies get all their money? Do you think the grow it on trees and pick it off when they need to pay people or cover costs or whatever?

No, these companies get their money from THE CONSUMER...YOU, ME, RUSS, MOONBEAR; EVERYONE is a consumer.

So the market is driven by the POPULATION. What the companies DO with their profits is a different story.

 

[russ_watters]

Burnsys, wher eso you think these companies get all their money? Do you think the grow it on trees and pick it off when they need to pay people or cover costs or whatever?

No, these companies get their money from THE CONSUMER...YOU, ME, RUSS, MOONBEAR; EVERYONE is a consumer.

Therein lies another beauty of capitalism: in order for it to work (for companies to profit), the consumers need money. If a company exploits its workers, the company harms itself.

 

[misskitty]

Thus making the economy a consumer driven institution. :biggin: The companies still have an influencing hand in how the cosumers decide to spend their money, but they don't dictate it. The consumers dicate how they want to spend their funds.

 

[plover]

I'm here for to be talking at you capitalism, capitalism, capitalism...

"Capitalism", as it has been used in this discussion, is pretty much a null word, a cipher onto which people are projecting whatever good/evil (per their taste) they are seeing in some economic order. There was a time when "capitalism" and "communism" could effectively summarize the distinctions between two dominant systems of economics being used by different countries, but at this point this dichotomy is, in most cases, just a historical bogey-man. (There are what, four (China, Vietnam, Cuba, N. Korea), countries nowadays that would call themselves communist? And the only one of those with a sizable effect on the world economy is currently only arguably under a system that corresponds to any meaningful historical sense of the word.) To say anything about capitalism, it is necessary to ask: under what conditions? by which rules? The U.S. was a capitalist country in 1800, 1850, 1900, 1950, 2000 but the rules changed significantly between each of those dates.

(Hmm... should I hope that russ, if he chooses to respond to this, will pleasantly surprise me by not attributing bizarre motives to me, not painting me with inappropriate liberal stereotypes, and not making a priori assumptions concerning my agreement/disagreement with others in this thread? Maybe he'll even read the whole thing before starting his response.)

My point/justification is simple: providing someone who has no food with a means of getting food is a good thing.

When the situation can be reduced to this: sure, some solution is better than no solution. But why were these particular people starving? Because they lived in a region that historically had poor resources, and the population is now too high? Because environmental degradation (caused perhaps by a neighboring country's resource usage) has rendered their traditional lifestyle unviable? Because their government is/was despotic and has drained their wealth? Because international corporations are moving too much wealth out of their country for the government to maintain a decent infrastructure? The answer to this will determine whether some of the viable solutions (and there is always more than one) are more moral than others. And a solution that (sustainably, and as a start) moves local economic levels from starvation levels to (say) $3/person/day will (almost?) always be more moral than one that raises those levels to $2/person/day. There can also be something in this of the old saw about giving a person a fish vs. teaching a person to fish. I certainly have my doubts as to whether most corporations moving into a poor country would prefer the local population to have independence rather than be dependent on (and thus subservient to) said corporation. Certain kinds of investment mostly distort a local economy rather than moving that economy toward its own robust, sustainable dynamic.

Corporations benefit from the fact that there is a lot of poverty in the world. That is true. But in the same act that causes them to benefit, the poor also benefit. This is one of the beautiful things about capitalism: the corporations don't have to care abou the little guy to improve conditions for him.

This is true in some circumstances, false in others. And someone does have to look out for the little guy. History shows that capitalists are perfectly happy to let their workers (metaphorically, and in some historical cases, literally) live out their lives from generation to generation without ever leaving the coal mine—the workers don't escape until someone changes the rules. It could perhaps be argued that such changes are driven by other economic changes that are caused by other capitalists shaping the economy; however, someone still has to make sure those rules get changed, and it's rarely the mine owners that do it.

You really think an American company can bully a country like China?

Given the degree to which they own us, it will soon be getting so America itself can't economically bully China...

a system who has billions of people starving obiusly is not working right.

That system is called "communism" - you're arguing against the wrong thing. Capitalism is causing the improvement, not causing the problem.

WTF? Are you saying that everything done by "capitalism" (i.e. capitalist countries) during the Cold War was ipso facto good ("an improvement") and everything done by "communism" (i.e. communist countries) ipso facto detrimental ("the problem")? That would be, pardon my French, just plain silly.

And why can't capitalism be the source of both improvements and problems? The idea that some definition of capitalism exists (that isn't so general as to be useless in practice) such that it is everywhere an unalloyed good (if that is, indeed, what you are saying) just seems like quackery:

It's CAPITALISM! The miracle cure-all!
The panacea for all economic ills!
Whatever your troubles, whatever clouds darken your skies,
just add a little CAPITALISM and soon sunny days will return!
​

We've had that discussion before. It quite simply isn't true. Heck, the numbers are here in this thread: poor Chinese are getting richer and Americans are getting richer. Who then is getting poorer?

Well, sometimes it's poor Americans. Over the period 1977-94, the bottom (in economic terms) 60% of Americans saw real income loss, and the closer to the bottom end of the scale, the steeper the decline. In the same period the top 1% of Americans saw vastly greater gains than even those in the 95-99 percentile. As a contrast, over the period 1945-77, all strata of Americans saw similar (as a percentage) wealth gains. (The source for these figures is the Congressional Budget Office, but my reference is in a book, so I don't have a link.)

In any case, however, it is true that capitalism is not a zero-sum game.

So what? An improvement is still an improvement!

Perhaps—when the issue is moving people from starvation to subsistence. But even then questions can still be asked. Why this ratio and not another? Who set up the rules and who do they favor?

That specific thing is a crime and is irrelevant to the question I asked. Your claim was that the system of capitalism is causing this problem. Someone committing a crime is no obeying the system.

Is it a crime? It's horrible, yes, but under the international law of the time being discussed, was it explicitly illegal? Was there any system in place to enforce such a law? Capitalism pretty much always obeys the dictate of "whatever you can get away with", precisely because it is amoral (i.e. neither moral nor immoral). So until there is an enforceable legal code controlling a given means to some economic advantage, that means is pretty much by definition "part of the system". The rules change; there is no unitary "capitalism".

Why is it not ok that a company profits a lot while a an individual profits a little ...?

Another question that should be answered case by case.

That's another factually incorrect statement. Unemployment in the US reamains at near historical lows. Even with a lot of jobs being shipped overseas, the economy is still humming right along.

Ooh yeah, temp jobs, service jobs with no benefits, great stuff there. All boats are really being lifted.

Note: I'm not saying that no jobs would be better, I'm saying that rules that encourage the creation of jobs with no security need serious improvement.

Besides - don't you want us to fail?

You don't really believe this kind of Fox/Limbaugh BS, do you?

The alternative to American companies shipping their jobs overseas and paying people enough to eat is for American companies to not ship their jobs overseas, causing people to starve to death.

And other sayings from the land of daft, simplistic dichotomies...

I hope you realize that I have not once said here that "capitalism" is de facto "bad" or "evil", just that, like every other powerful idea, it requires a certain amount of attention to detail for its benefits to reach the greatest number, and its failures the least.

 

[Burnsys]

Burnsys, wher eso you think these companies get all their money? Do you think the grow it on trees and pick it off when they need to pay people or cover costs or whatever?

No, these companies get their money from THE CONSUMER...YOU, ME, RUSS, MOONBEAR; EVERYONE is a consumer.

So the market is driven by the POPULATION. What the companies DO with their profits is a different story.

No. money grow in the federal reserve and then in private banks, Then the private banks decide who they give the money and what amount..

But anyway yes they get the money from the consumer, but when corporations are an oligopoly, and 5 or 6 coporations controls 90% of their market then you are a hostage and you and me simply don't drive anything they drive you...

And most of their profits are used to pay advertising an tricking the people to buy their products, of course you will never see an advertisment of nike showing you a vietnam factory with womans working 14hs all days under the worst conditions. so how do you decide?? (when i mean you i mean the 90% of people who all information they get. came from the tv) who is also controlled by 7 or 8 big corporations...

they did it simple in argentina... corporations came at the same time that private foreing banks... the banks give them really bigs loans and corporations bougth all their most rentable competitors... that is the free market...

 

[Burnsys]

One question. may bee it's a stupid question, but anyway..

Why do china need American dolars to put his own people to work?
What is the problem.. people would only work for american folars in china? or what??
And in that case, so american solution to world poverty is pure american investments in poor countrys?

 

[russ_watters]

(Hmm... should I hope that russ, if he chooses to respond to this, will pleasantly surprise me by not attributing bizarre motives to me, not painting me with inappropriate liberal stereotypes, and not making a priori assumptions concerning my agreement/disagreement with others in this thread? Maybe he'll even read the whole thing before starting his response.)

Jeez, I know I have this reputation, but it really is undeserved. In fact, I agree with far more than I disagree with in your post. Even some of the points that you disagreed on, you just misinterpreted and we actually agreed. Furthermore, I much prefer someone present an argument (as you generally do) than just state an opinion without explanation, expansion, or justification. So with that, assume if I don't comment on it, I agree with it...

But why were these particular people starving?

Yes, I've been talking simply and its more complicated than I have characterized it - but until now, I haven't seen any discussion and you have to start somewhere... Your characterization is accurate (the questions imply answers, and they are pretty much correct) - though I will say, we're talking specifically about China at the moment.

This is true in some circumstances, false in others.

I prefer to say its a more-often-than-not true oversimplification designed to provoke a discussion. Until this point, I have been unsuccessful...

WTF? Are you saying that everything done by "capitalism" (i.e. capitalist countries) during the Cold War was ipso facto good ("an improvement") and everything done by "communism" (i.e. communist countries) ipso facto detrimental ("the problem")? That would be, pardon my French, just plain silly.

It is silly and its not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying overall, China was where it was 20 years ago primarily because of its government. I'm also saying that the improvements in the past 20 years have, by and large, been due to reformations that have made China more capitalistic.

And why can't capitalism be the source of both improvements and problems? The idea that some definition of capitalism exists (that isn't so general as to be useless in practice) such that it is everywhere an unalloyed good (if that is, indeed, what you are saying) just seems like quackery:

Capitalism does have good and bad points and I never suggested otherwise. The US (for example) has put limitations on pure capitalism because of flaws such as the propensity for the growth of monopolies.

Well, sometimes it's poor Americans. Over the period 1977-94, the bottom (in economic terms) 60% of Americans saw real income loss, and the closer to the bottom end of the scale, the steeper the decline. In the same period the top 1% of Americans saw vastly greater gains than even those in the 95-99 percentile. As a contrast, over the period 1945-77, all strata of Americans saw similar (as a percentage) wealth gains. (The source for these figures is the Congressional Budget Office, but my reference is in a book, so I don't have a link.)

The numbers I cited say otherwise (already linked, but here are the numbers):

Bracket: 20%...40%...60%...80%...Top 20%..Top 5%
1977...$9,411..$22,212..$36,625..$53,628..$94,009...$138,751
1994...$9,530..$23,603..$39,761..$61,874..$130,076..$224,736
Gain/yr:..0.1%...0.3%...0.5%...0.9%...2.1%...3.4%

http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/h03ar.html is the specific table (bottom table). Yes, the numbers are inflation adjusted. And though the improvements are small on the lower end, the reason is that you (or whoever you got the numbers from) specifically selected that time period to get the most unfavorable numbers: the numbers are selected from the height of one economic cycle to the recession of the next (its 1.5 cycles). If you look at a broader time period, you'll see much bigger gains across the board (even as a % per year). Ie:

Bracket: 20%...40%...60%...80%...Top 20%..Top 5%
1967 ...$7,589..$20,690..$33,035..$46,220..$83,758...$133,507
2002...$9,996..$25,678..$43,588..$68,994..$147,078..$253,239
Gain/yr:..0.9%...0.7%...0.9%...1.4%...2.2%...2.6%

I didn't compound the growth rate (I'm lazy), so the growth numbers actually would compress a little as you go up if done correctly. And they don't list the top 1%.

Frankly, I think you've been manipulated by a biased book (author).

Perhaps—when the issue is moving people from starvation to subsistence. But even then questions can still be asked. Why this ratio and not another? Who set up the rules and who do they favor?

I have not claimed that the current system is perfect: merely that it is an improvment (a vast improvement) over communism (in this particular case, Maoism).

Is it a crime? It's horrible, yes, but under the international law of the time being discussed, was it explicitly illegal?

The thread had a lot of examples, but among them were bribery, extortion, and rackettering. Those are certainly a crime everywhere, whether enforced or not...

Was there any system in place to enforce such a law?

Therein lies one of the biggest flaws of the system. But where does the flaw lie? In the US we have laws and we enforce them, but international commerce is international: if somoen bribes a Chinese official, its up to China to prosecute them. As usual, the flaw lies in the country (China) that is in transition from a deeply flawed and corrupt system, to functional capitalism. International law on the subject is not very strong, but should it be? People are already claiming that its stealing their sovereignty!

Another question that should be answered case by case.

Why? This is a conversation about general principles. Why can't you give a general answer? My answer is that in general, market forces should be allowed to drive the market.

Ooh yeah, temp jobs, service jobs with no benefits, great stuff there. All boats are really being lifted.

[shrug] Stats are above. If you can find justification for your objection, please show it to me.

Note: I'm not saying that no jobs would be better, I'm saying that rules that encourage the creation of jobs with no security need serious improvement.

[shrug again] The generation X culture has abandoned job loyalty. Its a two-way street and you can't pin it all on the employers.

You don't really believe this kind of Fox/Limbaugh BS, do you?

That was a question, not a statement, but it is relatively clear to me that Burnsys is interested only in equality of outcome and not the reality that comes with it. The choice really is that simple: communism and failure or capitalism and wealth.

And other sayings from the land of daft, simplistic dichotomies...

Feel free to clarify/expand/correct me on that...

 

[plover]

The numbers I cited say otherwise

I wrote part of a long post (no really, this one is much shorter ) about the differences between the Census numbers and the CBO numbers and what they might mean, but laying out the complexities, and finding the rest of the data that goes along with my underlying point is more work than I really want to do right now. Here's the short version:

1. I found what is probably the original CBO data. Most of it is in this dataset of effective tax rates (mostly Table 3), but some probably comes from this report on tax liabilities. The book (Wealth and Democracy, Kevin Phillips, 2002) gives a list of sources for the chapter rather than detailed footnotes, so it's possible that the specific numbers came from some analysis in one of the other sources.
2. If it is based on those CBO documents, then there is definitely something weird about the chart in the book. (For one thing, there's no 1994 data in the documents.) However, some of the data points in the chart correspond to a linear interpolation of the 93 and 95 data, and the points that don't differ in such a way as to understate the author's point rather than exaggerate it. There are also inconsistencies in the text that make me think some kind of editorial snafu may have happened in relation to this particular chart, but nothing that looks biased per se.
3. Deriving figures directly from the CBO data for 77-95 produces numbers more or less qualitatively consistent with my original statement. (Though the 3rd quintile ends up with 0% change rather than being slightly negative.)
4. The main reason why the CBO figures differ from the Census figures is that the Census figures are gross earned income (i.e. not including capital gains and such), and the CBO data used for the chart is total disposable after-tax income. (See Table 3 of the CBO dataset.)
5. Phillips is not using the data for the same thing I was using it for, and as presented in the book, it supports his point better than mine.

In the end, I still think what I intended to say is correct, but I think my point was made over-hastily, somewhat unclearly, and would take more effort to clarify and defend (to my own satisfaction, let alone anyone else's) than is likely to happen in the context of this thread.

Frankly, I think you've been manipulated by a biased book (author).

In general, thank you for a measured response, this is the only point where you seem to have dragged in some completely unwarranted assumption. But really, if I made such an accusation on a similar amount of evidence, you'd likely call it a conspiracy theory. You can't have it both ways. Ask to have a source clarified if you're not satisfied, sure, but why not wait for some tangible evidence before throwing accusations around. This subject is complicated enough that it might be pretty much expected that a discrepancy like the one you noted would be caused by datasets measuring differing quantities.