Conservation of momentum and energy problem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem involving the conservation of momentum and energy in an elastic collision between two identical bumper cars. Participants explore the implications of the equations governing the collision and the conditions required to determine the final speeds of the cars.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a system of equations based on conservation laws to find the final speeds of the bumper cars, denoting them as "v" and "w".
  • Another participant notes that the solutions for "v" and "w" satisfy the conservation equations but questions the physical meaning of having two solutions.
  • A third participant summarizes that both energy and momentum are conserved whether the cars collide or do not collide, implying that the existence of two solutions is not surprising.
  • There are comments suggesting that reliance on tools like Wolfram Alpha may indicate a need for stronger algebra skills in physics.
  • One participant points out a potential typo in the equations that could lead to complex roots, suggesting that clarity in mathematical representation is important.
  • Another participant argues that common sense provides an additional constraint, stating that the following car must be moving slower than the leading car after the collision.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the two solutions for the final speeds, with some suggesting that common sense provides a necessary constraint while others focus on the mathematical aspects without reaching a consensus on the interpretation.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved issues regarding the assumptions made in the equations, including the potential for typos and the implications of the two solutions in the context of physical reality.

photon184739
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In an elastic collision, a 400-kg bumper car collides directly from behind with a second, identical bumper car that is traveling in the same direction. The initial speed of the leading bumper car is 5.60 m/s and that of the trailing car is 6.00 m/s. Assuming that the mass of the drivers is much, much less than that of the bumper cars, what are their final speeds?

Name "v" the unknown final speed of the 'leading' bumper care and "w" to the unknown final speed of the 'following' bumper car.

400kg*5.60 m/s + 400kg*6.00 m/s = 400kg*v + 400kg*w (conservation of momentum)
1/2*(400kg)*(5.60 m/s)^2 +1/2*(400kg)*(6.00 m/s)^2 = 1/2*400kg*v^2 + 1/2*400kg*w^2 (conservation of energy)

5.60 m/s + 6.00 m/s = v + w
5.60 m/s + 6.00 m/s = v^2 + w^2

The above system of 2 equations has the following 2 solutions:

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=5.6+6.0=v+++w,+5.6^2+++6.0^2+=+v^2+++w^2

solution 1: v=5.6, w=6.0
solution 2: v=6.0, w=5.6

Why are there 2 solutions? What additional constraint is needed to know that the leading bumper car's final speed v = 6.0 and the following bumper car's speed w = 5.6?
 
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All the maths does is find values of ##v## and ##w## so that the total momentum and energy are equal to their initial values. Do you notice anything about one solution for ##v## and ##w## compared to the initial values of velocity?
 
photon184739 said:
Summary:: conservation of momentum and energy problem

Why are there 2 solutions?
Both energy and momentum are conserved either if they collide elastically or if they miss and don’t collide at all.
 
In addition to any other responses you get, if you need Wolfram Alpha to solve two equations in two unknowns, you need to up your algebra game if you want to succeed in physics. (There's also at least one more mistake)
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
(There's also at least one more mistake)
Indeed, although it appears to be a typo since the equations as written have complex roots. @photon184739, maths is a lot easier to understand on forums if you use LaTeX, and hence you are less likely to make typos. Check out the guide linked below the reply box.
 
photon184739 said:
Summary:: conservation of momentum and energy problem

Why are there 2 solutions? What additional constraint is needed to know that the leading bumper car's final speed v = 6.0 and the following bumper car's speed w = 5.6?
The additional constraint is imposed by common sense. As long as there has been a collision, the following car can only be "following" if it is moving slower than the "leading" car.
 

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