Continuity and Compact Sets - Bolzano's Theorem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the proof of Bolzano's Theorem as presented in Tom Apostol's Mathematical Analysis. Participants are examining the implications of the continuity of a function and the conditions under which certain values can be considered upper bounds for a set.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Peter expresses confusion regarding the proof of Bolzano's Theorem, specifically about why \( f(c) < 0 \) implies that \( c - \delta/2 \) is an upper bound for set \( A \).
  • One participant explains that since \( f \) is continuous and \( f(c) < 0 \), there exists an interval around \( c \) where \( f \) remains negative, leading to a contradiction with the definition of the supremum of \( A \).
  • Peter acknowledges the explanation but seeks further clarification on the contradiction, suspecting that \( c - \delta/2 \) being in \( A \) would imply \( f(c - \delta/2) \ge 0 \), which contradicts the earlier established negativity.
  • Another participant confirms Peter's reasoning, stating that if \( c - \delta/2 \) is not in \( A \), it would create a strict upper bound for \( A \) that contradicts the definition of supremum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the implications of continuity and the definitions involved, but there remains some uncertainty regarding the justification of certain steps in the argument, particularly concerning the relationship between \( c - \delta/2 \) and the set \( A \).

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved aspects regarding the rigorous justification of whether \( c - \delta/2 \) belongs to \( A \) and how this affects the continuity argument. The discussion also reflects varying levels of understanding among participants.

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I am reading Tom Apostol's book: Mathematical Analysis (Second Edition).

I am currently studying Chapter 4: Limits and Continuity.

I am having trouble in fully understanding the proof of Bolzano's Theorem (Apostol Theorem 4.32).

Bolzano's Theorem and its proof reads as follows:
https://www.physicsforums.com/attachments/3863
In the above proof, Apostol writes the following:" ... ... If $$f(c) \lt 0$$, then $$c - \delta/2$$ is an upper bound for A, again contradicting the definition of $$c$$. ... ... "
Can someone please explain why $$f(c) \lt 0$$ implies that $$c - \delta/2$$ is an upper bound for A?

Help will be appreciated ... ...

Peter
 
Last edited:
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Hi Peter,

$f$ is continuous and $f(c)<0$ so there exists a 1-ball $B(c,\delta)$ (that's an open interval) where $f$ is negative, so $f(c-\delta/2)<0$ and $c-\delta/2<c=sup(A)$ which is a contradiction.
 
Fallen Angel said:
Hi Peter,

$f$ is continuous and $f(c)<0$ so there exists a 1-ball $B(c,\delta)$ (that's an open interval) where $f$ is negative, so $f(c-\delta/2)<0$ and $c-\delta/2<c=sup(A)$ which is a contradiction.

Hello Fallen Angel,

Thanks for your help!

... BUT ... still reflecting on what you have written ... and need further help ...

... I can see that $$f$$ is negative on $$B( c; \delta)$$ and thus, that $$f ( c - \delta/2 ) \lt 0$$ ... ... but fail to fully understand your contradiction ...I suspect the argument may be something like this ... ...

$$f ( c - \delta/2 ) \lt 0$$ from the argument of yours above ...

But then ... ...

$$c = \text{ sup } A$$ ... ... and therefore the point $$c - \delta/2 \in A$$ ... ... [ BUT ... ! I cannot justify this step rigorously! ...]

But $$c - \delta/2 \in A$$ implies that $$f( c - \delta/2) \ge 0$$ ... ... which contradicts what we established above ... ...Can you comment on my analysis ...

Hopefully you can clarify the situation for me ...

Thanks again for you help with the above issue ... ...

Peter
 
Hi Peter,

Yes, you can justify it like you have done, the fact that $c-\delta/2 \in A$ implies $f(c-\delta/2)\geq 0$ it's just by definition of $A$.

If $c-\delta/2\notin A$ then you have an upper bound for $A$ that is strictly less than the supremum, which is another contradiction.
 

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