Convergent series - What is this N thing?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mattofix
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Convergent Series
Mattofix
Messages
137
Reaction score
0
I am currently reading through my notes and found the convergent series to be defined.

lxn - Ll is less than (epsilon) whenever n is greater or equal to N

...i have looked on wikpedia and a few other web sites and i am not making any sense of what this N is...

wikipedia says - 'a series converges if there exists a limit L such that for any arbitrarily small positive number epsilon > 0, there is a large integer N such that for all n greather equal to N.'

I know that epsilson is the measure of closeness so that as n tends to infinity epsilon tends to 0.

What is this large interger N and why does n have to be greater or equal to it?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
N is used to signify how far into the sequence you have to go to make sure its terms get within an epsilon of the limit. That is, if n >= N, then x_n will be within epsilon of L. If you think about it intuitively, the smaller the epsilon, the longer you have to wait until the tail of the sequence is within an epsilon of the limit.

Here's an example. Take the sequence (x_n) given by x_n = 1/n, whose limit we know to be 0. If we would like (x_n) to be within 1/10 of 0, then we choose N=11, because if n>=11, then |x_n - 0| < 1/10. Of course we could also have chosen N=132974234, or any integer larger than 11.
 
Last edited:
N is not a magic number - you should just read those definitions as saying, "... we can find some integer less than infinity, which we'll call N, such that ..."
 
so to confirm...

N is the value of n where lxn - Ll = epsilon

...therefore for the example that morphism gave N should/could equal 10 because if n>N, then lxn - 0l<1/10?
 
Mattofix said:
so to confirm...

N is the value of n where lxn - Ll = epsilon

...therefore for the example that morphism gave N should/could equal 10 because if n>N, then lxn - 0l<1/10?
First, let me clarify that you are talking about sequences not series.

No, N could not equal N because the definition you gave, from Wikipedia, was "n is greater or equal to N". With n= 10, |1/n|= 1/10= \epsilon, not "<". As morphism said, N must be larger than n. If you require that N be an integer (not all texts do) then N must be "larger than or equal to 11". but, in any case, certainly must be larger than 10.
 
i am talking about series...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_series

...what i am saying is that when/if n=N then lxn-Ll = epsilon, which if correct would answer my question of what is N?

But as you said by the definition, n>N and lxn-Ll<epsilon which is the requirements for a convergent series.

...i think...
 
Then why don't you ask a question about series? If |x_n- L|&lt; \epsilon then L is the limit of the sequence xn, not of the series \sum_{n=1}^\infty x_n.

But as you said by the definition, n>N and lxn-Ll<epsilon which is the requirements for a convergent series.
I'm not at all sure what you mean by that. If, for any \epsilon&gt; 0, there exist N such that whenever n> N |x_n- L|&lt; \epsilon then the sequence converges to L. That is not at all what you said.
 
Hi Mattofix,

I'd like to split my answer into three parts.PART 1

Mattofix said:
I am currently reading through my notes and found the convergent series to be defined.

lxn - Ll is less than (epsilon) whenever n is greater or equal to N

...i have looked on wikpedia and a few other web sites and i am not making any sense of what this N is...

I think we should review what convergence means (it doesn't matter if
we consider a sequence or a series)

My professor once explained convergence this way which I found good:
Prof: "In order to understand the definition of convergence - the sequence x_n is convergent to L - let's play a game:
You, dear students, give me an epsilon, and I will give you an N such
that | x_n - L | &lt; \epsilon for all n\geq N."

So, the game consists of:
Step 1: Students choose epsilon.
Step 2: Prof chooses N
Step 3: Prof has to check if following condition is fulfilled:
| x_n - L | &lt; \epsilon if n \geq N
or: if n \geq N then |x_n-L| &lt; \epsilon

---

Mattofix, suppose we play that game then it goes like this:
Let's take e.g. the sequence x_n = 1/n for which I claim
that it converges to L=0.
Now, give me an \epsilon.

Step 1:
Suppose you gave me \epsilon = 0.002.
Then my task is to find an N such that
| x_n - L | &lt; \epsilon or
| 1/n - 0 | &lt; 0.002
if n \geq N.

Step 2:
So, it's my turn to choose an N.
For \epsilon = 0.002 I choose N = 1000.
Does this N fulfill the condition
| x_n - L | &lt; \epsilon or
| 1/n - 0 | &lt; 0.002
if n \geq N?

Step 3:
Let's check if the condition is fulfilled:
From the definition, n shall be greater or equal to N, thus:
n \geq N or n \geq 1000
Thus, from n \geq 1000 we get
1/n \leq 0.001 &lt; 0.002 = \epsilon or
|1/n - 0| &lt; \epsilon
(condition fulfilled)

---

We can play a new round in which you give me another \epsilon.
Then I find an N again for which
| 1/n - 0 | &lt; \epsilon

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------PART 2

Mattofix said:
What is this large integer N and why does n have to be greater or equal to it?

Maybe to understand more intuitively why n \geq N (and not only n=N) do the following:

Write down the values of the sequence x_n if n \geq 1000.
Let's keep \epsilon = 0.002.

x_{1000} = 1/1000
x_{1001} = 1/1001
x_{1002} = 1/1002
...
and so on.

What do you notice?
All these values of x_n, namely if n \geq N or n \geq 1000 fulfill the condition
| x_n - L | &lt; \epsilon
| 1/n - 0| &lt; 0.002

To make it clearer, let's write down again the list from above,
but this time we check, whether the condition | 1/n - 0| &lt; 0.002 is fulfilled:

Left hand side: x_n=1/n, right hand side: Check if |1/n - 0| &lt; 0.002

x_{1000} = 1/1000 Check: |1/1000 - 0| &lt; 0.002 (fulfilled)
x_{1001} = 1/1001 Check: |1/1001 - 0| &lt; 0.002 (fulfilled)
x_{1002} = 1/1002 Check: |1/1002 - 0| &lt; 0.002 (fulfilled)
...
and so on

You see, we have chosen an N such that for all n \geq N
the following holds: |x_n - L| &lt; \epsilon
(Note: We've only found an N for epsilon=0.002. If you want to show
that x_n is convergent you have to show that for any arbitrary epsilon>0 it is possible to find an N.)

You can make it even clearer if you interpret |x_n - L| &lt; \epsilon graphically.
Just plot the sequence x_n.
Have a look at figure 2.2 at the bottom of http://www.maths.abdn.ac.uk/~igc/tch/ma2001/notes/node18.html. In figure 2.2 a sequence is shown together with a blue stripe called the "epsilon neighborhood". You can recognize that all the dots lie within the epsilon neighborhood after some value N, i.e. if n \geq N.
That is the visual interpretation of:
if n \geq N then |x_n-L| &lt; \epsilon-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART 3

Mattofix said:
so to confirm...
N is the value of n where lxn - Ll = epsilon

Mattofix, you mentioned: if n = N then |x_n-L|= \epsilon
(contrary to the definition: if n \geq N then |x_n-L| &lt; \epsilon)
This may work sometimes, sometimes not.

Let's see what happens if we use your definition: if n = N then |x_n-L|= \epsilon
Let x_n = 1/n, thus from |x_n-L|= \epsilon we get
|1/n - 0| = \epsilon

a) Example where it works:
Choose \epsilon = 0.01
=> |1/n - 0| = 0.01

Then it's easy to find an N with n=N, namely N = 100:
|1/100 - 0| = 0.01

b) Example where it doesn't work:
Choose \epsilon = 2
=> |1/n - 0| = 2

Then it's not possible to find an N with n=N such
that |1/n - 0|=2.
(Do you see why?)As an exercise, try to show that with the correct definition of
convergence - |x_n -L| &lt; \epsilon if n \geq N - we can choose \epsilon = 2
without getting into trouble, i.e. it is possible to find an N such that
|1/n - 0| &lt; 2 if n \geq N.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top