What is the proof behind the Coriolis force formula?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the proof and derivation of the Coriolis force formula, particularly in the context of rotating reference frames. Participants explore both 2D and 3D perspectives of the Coriolis effect, seeking a rigorous mathematical foundation for the formula.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the Coriolis force formula as -2m\vec{}\omegax\vec{}v and requests a careful proof and diagram.
  • Another participant suggests starting with the 2D Coriolis effect and mentions the importance of understanding polar coordinates and time-dependent unit vectors.
  • A different participant expresses interest in the 3D condition of the Coriolis force and seeks a critical proof from both mathematical and physical perspectives.
  • One participant questions the need for a "critical proof," suggesting that changing coordinate systems leads to the emergence of pseudo forces, including the Coriolis force.
  • Another participant interprets the request as seeking a derivation of the equation rather than a formal proof.
  • A participant argues that proving the change of coordinate systems from xyz to rho, theta, phi is sufficient, implying that the Coriolis effect follows from this proof.
  • One participant explains that the Coriolis force is a pseudo force arising from expressing Newton's second law in a rotating frame and provides an operator form of the time derivative transformation between inertial and rotating frames.
  • This participant also outlines the relationship between the second time derivative of the position vector in inertial and rotating frames, detailing how fictitious forces, including the Coriolis force, arise in this context.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on what constitutes a satisfactory proof or derivation of the Coriolis force. There is no consensus on the necessity or form of a "critical proof," and multiple perspectives on the mathematical treatment of the Coriolis effect are presented.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the complexity of transitioning between coordinate systems and the implications for understanding the Coriolis force. The discussion reflects varying levels of familiarity with mathematical proofs and the underlying physics of rotating reference frames.

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When I studied "Earth Science" , I found a formula of Coriolis Force which is

-2m\vec{}\omegax\vec{}v

I am wondering how the formula is proven?


I need a careful proof and diagram

THX!
 
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The Coriolis Effect a result of using a rotating reference frame. I recommend getting comfortable with the Coriolis effect in 2d first. The site below is a nice site to get used to the polar coordinate basis and how to take derivatives using r, theta which are unit vectors that are dependent on time.

Notice the equation for acceleration:
img937.png


the
<br /> 2\dot{r} \dot{ \theta }\bf{e_{ \theta}<br />
is the Coriolis effect in 2d
here is a nice video describing this:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
LogicalTime said:
The Coriolis Effect a result of using a rotating reference frame. I recommend getting comfortable with the Coriolis effect in 2d first. The site below is a nice site to get used to the polar coordinate basis and how to take derivatives using r, theta which are unit vectors that are dependent on time.

Notice the equation for acceleration:
img937.png


the
<br /> 2\dot{r} \dot{ \theta }\bf{e_{ \theta}<br />
is the Coriolis effect in 2d
here is a nice video describing this:


I have known the effects of Coriolis force

I want to see the "3-D" condition of Coriolis Force

and the "critical" proof(by mathematics and physic)...

Thanks you for displaying the vedio!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
hmm not sure what we are looking for by "critical proof", basically when you are using a different coordinate system these pseudo forces just show up, so being able to change the coordinate system seems to do it. Maybe I am misunderstanding what you are asking, dunno.
 
I never took a "proof-writing" math class, but I think that's what he's asking for (am I right abc?). Or perhaps a derivation of the equation?
 
But this just requires changing coordinate systems from xyz to rho,theta,phi. If you prove that then the Coriolis effect is just a side effect of the proof. Am I missing something in my reasoning Lurch?
 
The Coriolis force is a pseudo force (aka inertial force, aka fictional force) that arises from wanting to express Newton's second law in a rotating frame. So, to understand how this term arises it is necessary to delve at least a little into rotating reference frames.

I'm not going to prove this here, but

<br /> \frac{d}{dt_I}(\boldsymbol{u}}) =<br /> \frac{d}{dt_R}(\boldsymbol{u}}) +<br /> \boldsymbol{\omega} \times \boldsymbol{u}<br />

where \boldsymbol{u} is any vector quantity and \boldsymbol{\omega} is the angular velocity of the rotating frame with respect to some inertial frame. The subscripts I and R on the time derivative of \boldsymbol{u} denote the time derivative of \boldsymbol{u} as observed by someone fixed in the inertial and rotating frames, respectively.

You can find a hand-waving proof of this conjecture in most sophomore/junior level classical physics texts. Good, solid proofs are hard to find. Some upper-level aerospace engineering texts do so. The result is an immediate consequence of the time derivative of the transformation matrix from the rotating to inertial frame (which takes a page or so to derive) or from the corresponding transformation quaternion (which takes a quarter page or so to derive).

The above expression in operator form becomes

<br /> \frac{d}{dt_I} =<br /> \frac{d}{dt_R} +<br /> \boldsymbol{\omega} \times<br />

Using this expression, the second time derivative of the position vector from the perspective of inertial and rotating observers are related via

<br /> \aligned<br /> \frac{d^2\boldsymbol{x}}{dt^2_I} &amp;=<br /> \frac{d}{dt_I}\left(\frac{d\boldsymbol{x}}{dt_I}\right) \\<br /> &amp;=<br /> \frac{d}{dt_R}\left(\frac{d\boldsymbol{x}}{dt_I}\right) +<br /> \boldsymbol{\omega} \times \left(\frac{d\boldsymbol{x}}{dt_I}\right) \\<br /> &amp;=<br /> \frac{d}{dt_R}\left(\frac{d\boldsymbol{x}}{dt_R} +<br /> \boldsymbol{\omega} \times \boldsymbol{x} \right) +<br /> \boldsymbol{\omega} \times<br /> \left(\frac{d\boldsymbol{x}}{dt_R} +<br /> \boldsymbol{\omega} \times \boldsymbol{x}\right) \\<br /> &amp;=<br /> \frac{d^2\boldsymbol{x}}{dt^2_R} +<br /> \frac{d\boldsymbol{\omega}}{dt} \times \boldsymbol{x} +<br /> 2\,\boldsymbol{\omega} \times \frac{d\boldsymbol{x}}{dt_R} +<br /> \boldsymbol{\omega} \times (\boldsymbol{\omega} \times \boldsymbol{x})<br /> \endaligned<br />

Newton's second law holds in an inertial frame, so the left-hand side is just Fext/m. Solving for the second derivative of the position vector as observed in the rotating frame yields for constant-mass objects

<br /> m\,\frac{d^2\boldsymbol{x}}{dt^2_R} =<br /> \boldsymbol{F}_{ext} -<br /> \left(<br /> m\,\frac{d\boldsymbol{\omega}}{dt} \times \boldsymbol{x} +<br /> 2\,m\,\boldsymbol{\omega} \times \frac{d\boldsymbol{x}}{dt_R} +<br /> m\,\boldsymbol{\omega} \times (\boldsymbol{\omega} \times \boldsymbol{x})<br /> \right)<br />

The three terms proportional to mass are various fictitious forces (all fictitious forces are proportional to mass). As the Earth's rotation rate is nearly constant, so the first fictitious force term can be safely ignored for earth-based observations. The second fictitious force term is the Coriolis force while the final term is centripetal force.
 

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