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Creational Theory

  1. Oct 6, 2003 #1
    "Creational Theory"

    Betty here.
    This will be a first attempt at posting.
    This ideology was moved here from "Debunking Religion."
    I subscribe to the Inflationary Theory of which,"I Believe" there are about three theorys that meet these requirments with similar results. "Our universe."
    I'm no whiz here so many of you will use terminologys I may need to have simplified. Many of you know me already.
    "Debunking Religion" came to a screeching halt because so much happened leading up to the point where "I Believe" we shed the energy of the Higg's Field(which i could use a lot of help in comprehinding if one of you will be so kind) and left "False Vacume" when the energy coverted to mass, Henceforth the Big Bang.
    As far as I can assertain (as the bible is open to interpretation) the big bang would be refered to as the moment of creation.
    Now, back to the beginning.
    Think "NOTHING", absoultly nothing. Even a vacume needs containment of some sort or the vacume would not work. This is not even a vacume. It's just nothing. Now thats deep.
    If your not into this, lets discuss "how come?"
    If you are, or think you may be then help me with this.
    What can happen in the world of quantum physics can happen in the first few milliseconds to throw off the balance off nothing?
    I think "Nothing" is an UNSTABLE system. Law states that "all systems must evolve to a lowest state of energy" which is why in about several trillion years everything should be black.
    Please rethink what "truely" nothing must be. It's conceptually difficult.
  2. jcsd
  3. Oct 6, 2003 #2


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    Could you clarify what you are interested in a bit please? You seem to have a number of things rather confusingly (to me anyway) thrown together - Higgs fields, false vacuum, the Big Bang, and unstable energy systems.

    If I could ask about just one specific thing, a millisecond is an awfully long time; light will have travelled 300 km in that time, and if your PC had a clock speed that slow you'd never get your post sent. Do you have a particular reason for selecting such a long period of time?

    If you're interested in the early universe, you might find this article of interest:
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2003
  4. Oct 6, 2003 #3


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    I hope you realize the religion forum was killed for a reason.

    I'm also not sure why you seem to have beliefs about what the Higgs (not Higg's) Field does and does not do, when you don't even know what it is.

    That sort of thing seems to be a hallmark of the crackpot.

    - Warren
  5. Oct 6, 2003 #4
    :wink:Hey, thanks for showing some intrest. I'm still in need of some help in a few areas. Thats why I'm here.
    CHROOT, help me here. This a weak point for me, I've only some loose concept of the charicteristics of this field. Am I correct that matter was created as this energy field was dissipating?
    I wait for an answer on that one. Perhaps I have my sequence of events out of order.
    NEREID well, I guess, as I've started things, the first problem I'd like to tackle is the Quantum Fluction or Singularity that may have been the first thing to occure that sparked the build-up of runaway energy. Depending on which way one leans on this ideology there are two or three accepted possibilities.
    A millisecond "is" a long time in the context we're concerned with, and many things are happening here simultainiously.
    We'd have to go back to the 500,000yr mark to see atoms form; back to the 3min. mark to watch the formation of nuculi, but before the .oo1/sec. mark, as far as i know, all matter was in a plasma state with free electrons, protons and nuculi. Is that correct?
    It is before this point I want to start.
    I read some ideas that seem to imply that "nothing" is "something" as zero "is" a value, and some other books that use quantum fluctions as their springboard to explain "matter."
    So, where did we get matter from energy and what started the build-up of energy to start with? Keep in mind I'd like to start with nothing, an absolute void.
    As I said,I need some help on conceptual visualzation on what or how the Higg's Field influences energys during it's phase.
    It's a difficult field to find info on that I haven't read yet.
  6. Oct 6, 2003 #5


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    I can tell from your questions that you are not even remotely close to having the physical skills to be able to understand the nature of the early universe. I honestly hate to say this, but I feel I must: start slow. Go read up on basic particle physics, and about the four fundamental interactions. Only when you fully understand that material will you really be able to understand anything about the early universe.

    - Warren
  7. Oct 7, 2003 #6
    Betty ------ Ignore chroot :-)

    If he does'nt have the answer ... he tells you about how stupid you are. It's essentially --- His trademark.

    Fact is ..... Nobody has an answer to your questions. You are on close to the same footing as any physicist. Anything that pops into your head could very well be the answer to your question.

    Perhaps starting with nothing in the absolute sense is yer first mistake. Perhaps this is not possible by any means whatsoever. As for the Higgs field (particle) - Maybe they are on to something, or maybe you should make something on yer own. That's what they do. They come up with an idea and see how it plays out. Figure it out for yourself - Call it the (slapenduula crunch mondoo).

    If you can think in a purely logical manner (difficult to do by any man, woman, or child) The answer will logically come to you. And don't leave out the possibility that the universe began in an illogical manner either - Logic should tell you this is a possibility also.

    Above all - Ignore Chroot

    He has an agenda to destroy yer discussion. He quite literally can't help himself.
  8. Oct 7, 2003 #7


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    Thanks for the clarification Betty.

    May I suggest the following?
    If you're interested in the nature of the vacuum, quantum fluctuations, virtual particles, etc, then your thread is in the right place - Quantum Physics. Chroot made a very good suggestion - find a good introductory book on quantum mechanics (or an online course) and take the time to learn the concepts, if not the math.

    If you're interested in cosmology - the origin of the universe, etc, as teased out by the application of the scientific method - then start with a popular account such as Steven Weinberg's The First Three Minutes. Your questions would be better posted to the General Astronomy area.

    AFAIK, physics is mute about the first 10-43 seconds of the universe, so a discussion about this period will be largely speculation.

    If you're trying to introduce a religious character to this forum, as you'll have seen if you read through the various posts, this thread will be moved by the Mentor to a more appropriate area.
    The era which interests you - the first millisecond - includes inflation, and the time when the strengths of the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces diverged. The physics of the last part of the millisecond is well described by the Standard Model; Gordon Kane's article in the June edition of Scientific American ("The Dawn of Physics Beyond the Standard Model") is a good overview.

    If you've questions on the Lineweaver article (linked in my previous post; it's a good summary of 'quantum cosmology'), there are already a couple of threads going on that.
  9. Oct 7, 2003 #8


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    Nereid, that link you posted when you said

    "If you're interested in the early universe, you might find this article of interest:

    is to one of my most favorite articles about the universe of all time
    Lineweaver's "Inflation and the Cosmic Microwave Background"
    and I hope Betty has a look at it----if only to photograph a mental image of the teardrop-shape lightcones---it has such clear informative spacetime diagrams I wish everybody could study them a bit---theres stuff in that article that is not really hard!

    However there is a potential for confusion in language in what you say. "Quantum Cosmology" for a lot of people means where you quantize a going model of the universe---not necessarily or even primarily focussing on the first picosecond or nanosecond or minute when presumably quantum physics was so important---but actually trying for a quantum model of all space and time.

    Maybe that is an unwise endeavor :smile: tho personally I dont think so. And maybe it is an awkward use of words. But it is how a considerable number of people talk. So when Martin Bojowald says "Loop Quantum Cosmology" he means quantizing the prevailing cosmologists model---General Relativity and specifically the Friedmann equations----by (in his case) loop methods---and then applying this quantized model to questions in cosmology.

    so for him and a number of others "Loop Quantum Cosmology" means Loop Quantum Gravity as appled to cosmology.

    So it doesnt immediately have the sense of focussing on the very early universe----although because that's interesting it often does turn out to focus on that!

    I would say that Lineweaver's article is about the early universe (and also about events far into the future, with accelerating expansion!) but that the cosmology in it is mostly classical GR, not quantum. just clarifying a difference in terms
  10. Oct 7, 2003 #9


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    BTW isnt it wonderful how theological speculations always filter into cosmology and indeed astronomy in general?

    Nereid you very feelingly brought up the Fermi question "where are they" which has sometimes given me a scary supernatural tingle----because there ought to be lots of trash and at least archeological evidence unless ALL the aliens were compulsively neat people

    Anyway I come down on the side of welcoming Betty to cosmology with the utmost politeness since one never knows who was around at time zero

    But I want her to understand the use of Occam's razor. Thats all. Thats all I ask for my part (and Im just one voice in the discussion).

    Assuming that the universe began at the same moment expansion began---call it time zero---is probably an unnecessary complication to the picture since it is no longer required by theory.

    It used to be required that when you extrapolate backwards you stop, because the mathematical model broke at time zero---with infinities. It went haywire and wouldnt compute because of density and curvature blew up.

    So people thought of the Universe as beginning at time zero and talked like that to newspaper reporters.

    But now that trouble seems to have been fixed and there is no longer any reason to suppose that the cosmos began at time zero. It MAY have begun then. But adding that sort of complicates things unnecessarily in a way that Brother Occam would not like.

    One can believe that it began at time zero as a matter of Faith and lots of people do. But I dont see any scientific reason to include a timezero Beginning in the actual model.

    Eventually maybe the smell of singularity that used to attract theologically minded people to time zero and the big bang will probably go away because the singularity has been or is in the process of being erased and the timeline extended out into negative time. So then we are back to Eternity and theological thinking can regroup around that.

    Does anyone know the Latin phrase "Pleni sunt coeli et terra gloria tua" and can anyone but a fool really argue with that. The only question is who tua is and nobody really knows do they. I think she's' a girl and her name is Nature and Im also a total sceptic about speculations like that and yesterday my choral group rehearsed a dynamite sing by Josef Haydn called "The Creation". So we're complex what else is new.
  11. Oct 7, 2003 #10


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    In fact, I can explain in painstaking detail the currently accepted theory of the early universe, and the Higgs field, and so on. Another fact is that if I did, she wouldn't understand a word of it.
    You're just bitter because I've called you stupid, too.

    - Warren
  12. Oct 7, 2003 #11


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    It can be confusing, can't it. However, in this case, I simply borrowed the phrase from Lineweaver. In the penultimate section of his paper he says:
    BTW, to what extent would a successful LQG or SST (SMT?) be able to address at least some part of the first 10-34s?
  13. Oct 7, 2003 #12
    Well, ARC-CENTRAL, Thank you for some encourgement. I did state to all that I'm certainly no whiz here; no real schooling, but with great intrest and the gift to understand abstract ideas and concepts. I haven't read most of the books and stuff you all discuss.

    CHROOT, Thanks for an answer anyway, but stick around, I think this might be an extensive thread if I don't stupid out on all of you.

    NEREID, Mabey it is gen astron I should be at, "but" If my questions hinge on 10-43sec. and before then isn't "everything" theory, speculation or conjecture? And if so do the rules of "general astron & phys apply here?, or I'm I wrong in thinking that this period was influenced solely by quantum physics. I'm refering to a point when everyting was energy. I'm of the theory that there was a runaway build-up of energy, but I'm still trying to invision these "Virtual Particles" theorys. Wouldn't these particles constaintly get "created and annililated" in a span too short to measure "balance the emtiness or vacume?" And what about the uncertainty princple? Sooner or later some particle is not going to get annililated or reabsorbed, if you will, in time. Now things are out of balance. What happens?
    I'll read the books and links left for me.
    Marcus; Thanks for the support.
    WHAT- - the hell is OCCAM'S RAZOR? I'll look that one up.
    CHROOT; I've been saving this for last. You may be suprised
    To know that I am A longhair bass guiter player with a wife 4 kids(still at home) and I'm 48 years old and can play STAIND, NICKLEBACK, GODSMACK, or THEORY OF A DEADMAN better than anyone you've met in a while.
    Thanks to all. I've got some reading to do.
  14. Oct 7, 2003 #13


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    You may be surprised to know that I also play guitar and am not really impressed by a bassist playing Staind -- how much more plain and poppy can you get? If you want to impress me, come back when you can keep up with Wooten.

    - Warren
  15. Oct 7, 2003 #14
    Hello Chroot, I see you should be qualified to speak on these matters at hand. You seem displeased with my lack of knowledge in some areas. It would be helpful if you weren't so condisending and criticle and could perhaps offer some usefull guidance.
    I've already read up on things suggested to me by others and have learned much already.
    I would think that you can play guitar quite well because of your other endevours in life. However I would never assume that you could only play three songs or songs of only three bands. So your attack on my choice of music seems confusing. I will only offer you comments when you specificly ask if that is what you prefer. If you can chill just a bit I'd like your input here when it's relevent. If we could, I'd like to jam with ya but your a long way from the crib.

    NOW, Marcus, Hey, I read that stuff on occam's razor. That's great theory to be considered. It helps me.
    There should be no more assumtions than necessary: I.E. simplicity.
    The 2nd paragraph was good.
    Would not a state of "Supersymmetry" be the ultimate in simplicity, like before the four forces were defined?
    This seems good, now from here back. What may have brought all this energy into creation? Were the four forces defined as mass was created? And where can I learn more on the Higg's Field?
    L8R - - - - - - - - - - you too chroot.
  16. Oct 7, 2003 #15
    I dont think Quantum Mechanics is the best way to start off period, most physicists don't understand it!
  17. Oct 7, 2003 #16
    :wink:Well Jeebus, are you sure bout that? I don't think I can get the answers any other way. Mabey you will help.
    I've been reading.
    In 1971 somebody(i can go back and find it) did the math and found the Higg's Theory a very real possibility.
    As I read things I find the belief is the Higg's field has "Magnitude" but no general/particuler direction in space. I understand some think remnants are "Still" there. I previously thought the fields energy disapated. So I'm making progress.
    I see now how intiger(did i spell that right) is important, I think.
    "IF"- a spin 1/2 particle is rotated 360' it will be in a measurably different location than maco logic predicts. A 720' rotation is required to return it to it's starting point. Who can verify that?
    I saw several other ideas while reading. General consensus seems that the next generation of accelerators will help.
    I'll read how the boson acts with the field to create mass and get back here.
    These bits of info seem to fall together as I learn more specific detais of each process going on.
  18. Oct 7, 2003 #17


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    It's almost right.

    A spin 1/2 is measured by a "spinor", which is almost like a vector. It is a pair of complex numbers (in Dirac theory and QFT it's four complex numbers). When you rotate the particle, the two numbers start to change, in a correlated way, and when you have turned the particle trough one full turn it may look as if it has returned to the same state but its spinor numbers are not back to battery. You have to turn the particle through another full turn (as you said), to bring them back to their starting values.

    You may say, oh, that's just some numbers, but this spinor measures the spin of the fermion (a fermion is a particle with quantum spin 1/2), just as the number on the scale measures my weight. If I want to change the number I have to change my behavior (diet and excercise). Just so the spinor controls a lot of the behavior of the particle.
  19. Oct 8, 2003 #18


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    From Planck time to the CMB would certainly be cosmology, and it would take a great deal from high energy physics, the Standard Model, supersymmetry, LQG, superstring theory, SMT (what DOES it stand for?), and so on. If you're seaching for answers about what happened in the first 10-43 seconds (or what happens at 'temperatures' greater than 1030+ K), I leave it to the PF old-timers, especially marcus and selfAdjoint, to suggest how best to proceed.
  20. Oct 8, 2003 #19
    SelfAdjoint, Man, that's cool insight you passed on.
    Thank you too Nereid, I'll digest what I've learned since last night.
  21. Oct 8, 2003 #20
    Hey, I'm back. It's sunney and warm here tody.
    No wonder this is stuff is theory, crap, who could possibly assemilate"so" much information.
    I gotta hand it to some of you, Today I've been reading a lot. I've copied and pasted several highlighted words from your input and my brain hurts[b(].
    I have read on Dirac Theory, Tensors, Einstein's Summation and a page on Arther Cayley (1821-1895) as well as many other definitions.
    I may be a day or two on returning as I'm going to learn more in order to put forth some questions or thoughts that might be slightly above high school level.
    "Assuming that the universe began at the same moment expansion began---call it time zero---is probably an unnecessary complication to the picture since it is no longer required by theory."
    This was an important statement by one of you(i thought anyway)because it allowes for "minus infinity."
    If early on the universe "was" "Just A Vacume" it seems there would still be some kind of balancing act going on between "Virtual" particles of some nature as they would be created and annililated constantly by an equle number of particles, being particle and anti-particles, causing disruptions in the cosmic sheet.
    Is it too much to postulate that this went on forever, or an unmeasuable, or "Infinit" amount of time untill the uncertainty principle happens along and "SOME" particle somewhere doesn't get annililated in time.
    What might theory say would happen? Would "this" spirel out of control and start some imbalence that "MIGHT" throw us into a big bang? If the bang point is ZERO then we have minus infinity and plus infinity finally in the same equation, "IF", we keep expanding untill everything is cold and dead.
    O.K., I'm getting in too deep, I'll stop for now.
    L8R, and thanks much for your input SelfAdjoint and Nereid.
    I'm quite intruigued at this level.
    Any sites that help would be good.
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