Curl as the limit vol->0 of a surface integral

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical expression for the curl of a vector field, specifically examining the limit of a surface integral as the volume approaches zero. Participants explore the derivation and implications of the equation presented by Joos, which relates the curl to a surface integral involving the vector field and surface elements. The conversation includes technical reasoning and mathematical manipulations, focusing on the theoretical aspects of vector calculus.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Joos's equation for curl is presented, and a participant questions the correctness of their derivation, suggesting a potential sign error.
  • Another participant proposes an alternative approach to the derivation, reversing the order of cross product terms, and notes that this aligns with Joos's result.
  • A participant expresses confusion and uncertainty about their understanding of the derivation process, indicating a need for further clarification.
  • One participant reflects on their earlier mistakes and presents preliminary identities related to the cross products of unit vectors and the vector field.
  • There is an exploration of summing contributions from each face of a rectangular solid to derive the expression for curl, with participants discussing the implications of their findings.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correctness of the derivations. There are competing views and approaches to the problem, with some participants expressing uncertainty about their results and others suggesting alternative methods.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge potential errors in their reasoning and derivations, indicating that their conclusions may depend on specific assumptions or approximations made during the calculations. The discussion remains open-ended, with unresolved mathematical steps and differing interpretations of the results.

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Joos asserts on page 31 https://books.google.com/books?id=btrCAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q&f=false that

$$\nabla \times \mathfrak{v} = \lim_{\Delta \tau \to 0} \frac{1}{\Delta \tau }\oint d\mathfrak{S}\times \mathfrak{v}$$

I tried to demonstrate this, and neglected to place the surface element before the vector. My result seems to show that Joos's equation should have a negative sign on one side or the other.

My development assumes a finite cube centered on the origin with dimensions ##dx dy dz = d\tau## sufficiently small that deviations from the value of ##\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)## are approximately linear. I sum the cross products of the field vector evaluated at the center of opposing faces with the surface element representing that face. Fiddle around with things, and end up with the curl.

Can someone tell me if I am doing something wrong here, and if so, what that something is?

$$\oint \mathfrak{v}\times d\mathfrak{S} \approx \left(\mathfrak{v}\left(\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\mathfrak{v}\left(-\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)\times \left(-\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\right)\right)dy dz
+\left(\mathfrak{v}\left(0,\frac{dy}{2},0\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\mathfrak{v}\left(0,-\frac{dy}{2},0\right)\times \left(-\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\right)\right)dx dz
+\left(\mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,\frac{dz}{2}\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}+\mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,-\frac{dz}{2}\right)\times \left(-\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)\right)dx dy$$

$$= \left(\mathfrak{v}\left(\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)-\mathfrak{v}\left(-\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}dy dz
+\left(\mathfrak{v}\left(0,\frac{dy}{2},0\right)-\mathfrak{v}\left(0,-\frac{dy}{2},0\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}dx dz
+\left(\mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,\frac{dz}{2}\right)-\mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,-\frac{dz}{2}\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}dx dy $$

$$\approx \left(\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)+\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dx}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dx}{2}\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}dydz
+\left(\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dy}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dy}{2}\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}dzdx
+\left(\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dz}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dz}{2}\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}dxdy$$

$$=\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)dx\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}dydz
+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)dy\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}dzdx
+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)dz\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}dxdy$$

$$=\left(\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)d\tau$$

$$=\left(-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{k}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{k}}-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{i}}-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\right)d\tau$$

$$=\left(\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\right)\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\right)\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\right)\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)d\tau$$

$$\lim_{d\tau \to 0} \frac{1}{d\tau }\oint \mathfrak{v}\times d\mathfrak{S}=\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\right)\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\right)\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\right)\hat{\mathfrak{k}}$$
 
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Here I've reversed the order of the cross product terms, and followed an abbreviation of the approach shown above. This seems to give the result Joos published. My mind has gone numb. It may all be obvious to me after a good night's sleep, but right now, I'm not seeing how these differ.

$$dx dS_x \hat{i}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial x}+dy dS_y \hat{j}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial y}+dz dS_z \hat{k}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial z}$$

$$d\tau \left(\hat{i}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial x}+\hat{j}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial y}+\hat{k}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial z}\right)$$

$$d\tau \left(\frac{\partial \left(\hat{j} v_x-\hat{i} v_y\right)}{\partial z}+\frac{\partial \left(\hat{i} v_z-\hat{k} v_x\right)}{\partial y}+\frac{\partial \left(\hat{k} v_y-\hat{j} v_z\right)}{\partial x}\right)$$

$$d\tau \left(-\hat{i} \frac{\partial v_y}{\partial z}+\hat{i} \frac{\partial v_z}{\partial y}+\hat{j} \frac{\partial v_x}{\partial z}-\hat{j} \frac{\partial v_z}{\partial x}-\hat{k} \frac{\partial v_x}{\partial y}+\hat{k} \frac{\partial v_y}{\partial x}\right)$$

$$d\tau \left(\hat{i} \left(\frac{\partial v_z}{\partial y}-\frac{\partial v_y}{\partial z}\right)+\hat{j} \left(\frac{\partial v_x}{\partial z}-\frac{\partial v_z}{\partial x}\right)+\hat{k} \left(\frac{\partial v_y}{\partial x}-\frac{\partial v_x}{\partial y}\right)\right)$$
 
Ok, I think I see it, but Whole Foods Market on P Street in Washington DC told me I am "camping out" and cannot not stay. I've been doing this for years, but I said something to the management about their environmental control system wasting energy and keeping the area uncomfortably warm. I'll pick this up tomorrow.
 
OK, I think this is correct. My original error makes me wonder at what level of thinking I transposed ideas. I'm leaving it as a puzzle for the curious.

Some preliminary identities:
$$\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \mathfrak{v}=\hat{\mathfrak{k}} v_y-\hat{\mathfrak{j}} v_z \text{; }
\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \mathfrak{v}=\hat{\mathfrak{i}} v_z-\hat{\mathfrak{k}} v_x \text{; }
\hat{k}\times \mathfrak{v}=\hat{\mathfrak{j}} v_x-\hat{\mathfrak{i}} v_y $$

I want to resolve this expression onto rectangular Cartesian coordinates:

$$\nabla \times \mathfrak{v}\equiv \lim_{\Delta \tau \to 0} \frac{1}{\Delta \tau }\oint d\mathfrak{S}\times \mathfrak{v}$$

Sum the contributions ##d\mathfrak{S}_i\times \mathfrak{v}## of each face of a small, finite rectangular solid ##dx dy dz = d \tau##, centered at the origin.

$$\oint d\mathfrak{S}\times \mathfrak{v}\approx dS_x \left(\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)-\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(-\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)\right)+dS_y \left(\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(0,\frac{dy}{2},0\right)-\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(0,-\frac{dy}{2},0\right)\right)+dS_z \left(\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,\frac{dz}{2}\right)-\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,-\frac{dz}{2}\right)\right)$$

(* Replace the values on the faces with differential approximations.*)

$$\approx \hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \left(\left(\mathfrak{v}+\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dx}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dx}{2}\right)\right)dydz+\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \left(\left(\mathfrak{v}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dy}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dy}{2}\right)\right)dzdx+\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\times \left(\left(\mathfrak{v}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dz}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dz}{2}\right)\right)dxdy|_{\mathfrak{v}=\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)}$$

(*Simplify terms.*)

$$=\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}dxdydz+\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}dydzdx+\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\times \frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}dzdxdy$$

(*Since the basis vectors are constant, the cross products can be preformed prior to partial differentiation.*)

$$=d\tau \left(\frac{\partial \left(\hat{\mathfrak{j}} v_x-\hat{\mathfrak{i}} v_y\right)}{\partial z}+\frac{\partial \left(\hat{\mathfrak{i}} v_z-\hat{\mathfrak{k}} v_x\right)}{\partial y}+\frac{\partial \left(\hat{\mathfrak{k}} v_y-\hat{\mathfrak{j}} v_z\right)}{\partial x}\right)$$
Rearranging terms and and taking the limit gives the desired result.

$$\lim_{d\tau \to 0} \frac{1}{d\tau }\oint d\mathfrak{S}\times \mathfrak{v}=\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\right)\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\right)\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\right)\hat{\mathfrak{k}}$$

Any critiques are welcome.
 

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