Curl as the limit vol->0 of a surface integral

In summary: By rearranging the terms, the resulting equation matches what Joos asserted on page 31, showing that his equation is correct. In summary, the conversation discusses a mathematical equation proposed by Joos on page 31 and the process of trying to demonstrate it through a specific example. The conversation concludes that Joos's equation is correct.
  • #1
Odious Suspect
43
0
Joos asserts on page 31 https://books.google.com/books?id=btrCAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q&f=false that

$$\nabla \times \mathfrak{v} = \lim_{\Delta \tau \to 0} \frac{1}{\Delta \tau }\oint d\mathfrak{S}\times \mathfrak{v}$$

I tried to demonstrate this, and neglected to place the surface element before the vector. My result seems to show that Joos's equation should have a negative sign on one side or the other.

My development assumes a finite cube centered on the origin with dimensions ##dx dy dz = d\tau## sufficiently small that deviations from the value of ##\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)## are approximately linear. I sum the cross products of the field vector evaluated at the center of opposing faces with the surface element representing that face. Fiddle around with things, and end up with the curl.

Can someone tell me if I am doing something wrong here, and if so, what that something is?

$$\oint \mathfrak{v}\times d\mathfrak{S} \approx \left(\mathfrak{v}\left(\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\mathfrak{v}\left(-\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)\times \left(-\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\right)\right)dy dz
+\left(\mathfrak{v}\left(0,\frac{dy}{2},0\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\mathfrak{v}\left(0,-\frac{dy}{2},0\right)\times \left(-\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\right)\right)dx dz
+\left(\mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,\frac{dz}{2}\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}+\mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,-\frac{dz}{2}\right)\times \left(-\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)\right)dx dy$$

$$= \left(\mathfrak{v}\left(\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)-\mathfrak{v}\left(-\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}dy dz
+\left(\mathfrak{v}\left(0,\frac{dy}{2},0\right)-\mathfrak{v}\left(0,-\frac{dy}{2},0\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}dx dz
+\left(\mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,\frac{dz}{2}\right)-\mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,-\frac{dz}{2}\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}dx dy $$

$$\approx \left(\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)+\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dx}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dx}{2}\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}dydz
+\left(\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dy}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dy}{2}\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}dzdx
+\left(\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dz}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)\frac{dz}{2}\right)\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}dxdy$$

$$=\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)dx\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}dydz
+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)dy\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}dzdx
+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)dz\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}dxdy$$

$$=\left(\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)\times \hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)d\tau$$

$$=\left(-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{k}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{k}}-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\hat{\mathfrak{i}}-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\right)d\tau$$

$$=\left(\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\right)\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\right)\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\right)\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\right)d\tau$$

$$\lim_{d\tau \to 0} \frac{1}{d\tau }\oint \mathfrak{v}\times d\mathfrak{S}=\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\right)\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\right)\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\right)\hat{\mathfrak{k}}$$
 
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  • #2
Here I've reversed the order of the cross product terms, and followed an abbreviation of the approach shown above. This seems to give the result Joos published. My mind has gone numb. It may all be obvious to me after a good night's sleep, but right now, I'm not seeing how these differ.

$$dx dS_x \hat{i}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial x}+dy dS_y \hat{j}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial y}+dz dS_z \hat{k}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial z}$$

$$d\tau \left(\hat{i}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial x}+\hat{j}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial y}+\hat{k}\times \frac{\partial \overset{\rightharpoonup }{v}}{\partial z}\right)$$

$$d\tau \left(\frac{\partial \left(\hat{j} v_x-\hat{i} v_y\right)}{\partial z}+\frac{\partial \left(\hat{i} v_z-\hat{k} v_x\right)}{\partial y}+\frac{\partial \left(\hat{k} v_y-\hat{j} v_z\right)}{\partial x}\right)$$

$$d\tau \left(-\hat{i} \frac{\partial v_y}{\partial z}+\hat{i} \frac{\partial v_z}{\partial y}+\hat{j} \frac{\partial v_x}{\partial z}-\hat{j} \frac{\partial v_z}{\partial x}-\hat{k} \frac{\partial v_x}{\partial y}+\hat{k} \frac{\partial v_y}{\partial x}\right)$$

$$d\tau \left(\hat{i} \left(\frac{\partial v_z}{\partial y}-\frac{\partial v_y}{\partial z}\right)+\hat{j} \left(\frac{\partial v_x}{\partial z}-\frac{\partial v_z}{\partial x}\right)+\hat{k} \left(\frac{\partial v_y}{\partial x}-\frac{\partial v_x}{\partial y}\right)\right)$$
 
  • #3
Ok, I think I see it, but Whole Foods Market on P Street in Washington DC told me I am "camping out" and cannot not stay. I've been doing this for years, but I said something to the management about their environmental control system wasting energy and keeping the area uncomfortably warm. I'll pick this up tomorrow.
 
  • #4
OK, I think this is correct. My original error makes me wonder at what level of thinking I transposed ideas. I'm leaving it as a puzzle for the curious.

Some preliminary identities:
$$\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \mathfrak{v}=\hat{\mathfrak{k}} v_y-\hat{\mathfrak{j}} v_z \text{; }
\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \mathfrak{v}=\hat{\mathfrak{i}} v_z-\hat{\mathfrak{k}} v_x \text{; }
\hat{k}\times \mathfrak{v}=\hat{\mathfrak{j}} v_x-\hat{\mathfrak{i}} v_y $$

I want to resolve this expression onto rectangular Cartesian coordinates:

$$\nabla \times \mathfrak{v}\equiv \lim_{\Delta \tau \to 0} \frac{1}{\Delta \tau }\oint d\mathfrak{S}\times \mathfrak{v}$$

Sum the contributions ##d\mathfrak{S}_i\times \mathfrak{v}## of each face of a small, finite rectangular solid ##dx dy dz = d \tau##, centered at the origin.

$$\oint d\mathfrak{S}\times \mathfrak{v}\approx dS_x \left(\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)-\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(-\frac{dx}{2},0,0\right)\right)+dS_y \left(\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(0,\frac{dy}{2},0\right)-\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(0,-\frac{dy}{2},0\right)\right)+dS_z \left(\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,\frac{dz}{2}\right)-\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\times \mathfrak{v}\left(0,0,-\frac{dz}{2}\right)\right)$$

(* Replace the values on the faces with differential approximations.*)

$$\approx \hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \left(\left(\mathfrak{v}+\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dx}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dx}{2}\right)\right)dydz+\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \left(\left(\mathfrak{v}+\frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dy}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dy}{2}\right)\right)dzdx+\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\times \left(\left(\mathfrak{v}+\frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dz}{2}\right)-\left(\mathfrak{v}-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}\frac{dz}{2}\right)\right)dxdy|_{\mathfrak{v}=\mathfrak{v}(0,0,0)}$$

(*Simplify terms.*)

$$=\hat{\mathfrak{i}}\times \frac{\partial }{\partial x}\mathfrak{v}dxdydz+\hat{\mathfrak{j}}\times \frac{\partial }{\partial y}\mathfrak{v}dydzdx+\hat{\mathfrak{k}}\times \frac{\partial }{\partial z}\mathfrak{v}dzdxdy$$

(*Since the basis vectors are constant, the cross products can be preformed prior to partial differentiation.*)

$$=d\tau \left(\frac{\partial \left(\hat{\mathfrak{j}} v_x-\hat{\mathfrak{i}} v_y\right)}{\partial z}+\frac{\partial \left(\hat{\mathfrak{i}} v_z-\hat{\mathfrak{k}} v_x\right)}{\partial y}+\frac{\partial \left(\hat{\mathfrak{k}} v_y-\hat{\mathfrak{j}} v_z\right)}{\partial x}\right)$$
Rearranging terms and and taking the limit gives the desired result.

$$\lim_{d\tau \to 0} \frac{1}{d\tau }\oint d\mathfrak{S}\times \mathfrak{v}=\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_z-\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_y\right)\hat{\mathfrak{i}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial z}v_x-\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_z\right)\hat{\mathfrak{j}}+\left(\frac{\partial }{\partial x}v_y-\frac{\partial }{\partial y}v_x\right)\hat{\mathfrak{k}}$$

Any critiques are welcome.
 

What is curl as the limit vol->0 of a surface integral?

Curl as the limit vol->0 of a surface integral is a mathematical concept used in vector calculus to describe the rotation or circulation of a vector field around a point. It is represented by the symbol ∇ x F, where ∇ is the del operator and F is the vector field. It is often used to understand the flow of fluids or electromagnetic fields.

Why is the limit vol->0 used in the definition of curl?

The limit vol->0 is used in the definition of curl because it represents the infinitesimal change in volume around a point. As the volume approaches zero, the curl becomes more accurate in describing the rotation of the vector field at that point. This is necessary because the curl is a local property and can vary at different points in the vector field.

How is the surface integral related to curl?

The surface integral is used to calculate the flux of a vector field through a surface. In the context of curl, it is used to calculate the net circulation of the vector field around a closed loop. As the limit vol->0, or the size of the loop, approaches zero, the surface integral becomes more accurate in representing the curl at a specific point.

What are some real-world applications of curl as the limit vol->0 of a surface integral?

Curl as the limit vol->0 of a surface integral has many real-world applications. For example, it is used in fluid mechanics to understand the rotation of fluid particles in a flow, in electromagnetism to describe the circulation of magnetic fields, and in meteorology to analyze wind patterns. It is also used in computer graphics to create realistic animations of fluid and smoke movements.

How is curl different from divergence?

While both curl and divergence are mathematical concepts used in vector calculus, they represent different properties of a vector field. Curl describes the rotation or circulation of a vector field, while divergence describes the source or sink of a vector field. In other words, while curl represents the movement of the vector field, divergence represents the expansion or contraction of the vector field.

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