Derivation of Divergence in Cartesian Coordinates

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the derivation of the divergence of a vector field in Cartesian coordinates, specifically examining the treatment of Taylor expansions and the evaluation of terms in the context of the divergence equation as presented in a textbook. Participants explore the implications of leaving certain terms in their functional forms versus evaluating them at a specific point.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the rationale behind leaving terms in the form ##F_x(x_0, y, z)## instead of evaluating them at the point ##(x_0, y_0, z_0)##, suggesting that this could affect the integration process.
  • Another participant argues that since the integrals cancel, there is no need to justify the approximation, implying that the result remains valid regardless of the form of the terms.
  • A different participant expresses concern that evaluating all zero-order terms at the point would lead to constants over which to integrate, challenging the treatment of the terms as varying functions.
  • One participant clarifies that the first-order corrections depend on the variables for the respective sides, reinforcing that the approximations may not be necessary due to the cancellation of terms.
  • A later reply acknowledges that the term ##F_x(x_0, y, z)## must account for variations in ##y## and ##z##, suggesting a resolution to the earlier concerns about the treatment of the terms.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriateness of leaving terms in their functional forms versus evaluating them at a specific point. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the necessity and implications of these choices in the derivation process.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the treatment of partial derivatives and the evaluation of terms may depend on the specific context of the divergence derivation, highlighting potential ambiguities in the notation used in different texts.

Zexuo
Messages
28
Reaction score
18
In section 1-5 of the third edition of Foundations of Electromagnetic Theory by Reitz, Milford and Christy, the authors give a coordinate-system-independent definition of the divergence of a vector field:

$$\nabla\cdot\mathbf{F} = \lim_{V\rightarrow 0}\frac{1}{V}\int_S\mathbf{F\cdot n}da$$

with ##S## the surface enclosing the volume ##V##.

In deriving the Cartesian form of the divergence they use ##\Delta x\Delta y\Delta z## as a volume element over which to make what appear to be first order Taylor expansions:

$$F_x(x_0 + \Delta x, y, z) = F_x(x_0, y, z) + \Delta x\frac{\partial F_x}{\partial x}\Bigg\arrowvert_{x_0, y, z}$$
$$F_y(x, y_0 + \Delta y, z) = F_y(x, y_0, z) + \Delta y\frac{\partial F_y}{\partial y}\Bigg\arrowvert_{x, y_0, z}$$
$$F_z(x, y, z_0 + \Delta z) = F_z(x, y, z_0) + \Delta z\frac{\partial F_z}{\partial z}\Bigg\arrowvert_{x, y, z_0}$$

I say "appear to be" because the zero order term and all derivatives in a Taylor expansion are evaluated at the initial point ##(x_0, y_0, z_0)##. In the next step they plug the above and ##\mathbf{F}(x_0, y_0, z_0)## into the divergence equation, with the six sides of ##\Delta x\Delta y\Delta z## as the surface:

$$\nabla\cdot\mathbf{F} = \lim_{V\rightarrow 0}\frac{1}{\Delta x\Delta y\Delta z}\Bigg\{\int F_x(x_0, y, z)dydz + \Delta x\Delta y\Delta z\frac{\partial F_x}{\partial x}\\ + \int F_y(x, y_0, z)dxdz + \Delta x\Delta y\Delta z\frac{\partial F_y}{\partial y}\\ + \int F_z(x, y, z_0)dxdy + \Delta x\Delta y\Delta z\frac{\partial F_z}{\partial z}\\ - \int F_x(x_0, y, z)dydz - \int F_y(x, y_0, z)dxdz - \int F_z(x, y, z_0)dxdy\Bigg\}$$

Is there anything to leaving terms in the form ##F_x(x_0, y, z)## instead of ##F_x(x_0, y_0, z_0)## and ##\int F_x(x_0, y, z)dydz## instead of ##F_x(x_0, y_0, z_0)\Delta y\Delta z##, especially since the partials are treated like constants which get multiplied by the areas of the sides outright?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
If you replaced then you would need to worry about your integration introducing terms that do not vanish in the limit, but the integrals cancel so why worry about doing an approximation that you will need to justify when you already have the result?
 
If, in composing the Taylor expansion, you evaluate all the zero-order terms and partials at the point ##(x_0, y_0, z_0)## then would not the integrals have only constants over which to integrate, leaving only those constants multiplied by the area? But the expansions I copied above show the terms as functions varying over their respective surfaces. I understand that the integrals get negated but I balked at seeing the terms presented as functions varying over a surface instead of evaluated at a point and therefore constant.

Note that they show the partials in the first set of equations also as functions of two of the three space dimensions (eg ##\frac{\partial F_x}{\partial x}\Big\arrowvert_{x_0, y, z}## instead of ##\frac{\partial F_x}{\partial x}\Big\arrowvert_{x_0, y_0, z_0}##), but they get treated as constants in the second set.

Have I read too much into the symbols here? Two other similar discussions of the divergence, in Arfken and Boas, don't have this problem.
 
Zexuo said:
then would not the integrals have only constants over which to integrate
No. The first order corrections in y and z would depend on y and z for the constant x sides and so on. The point renains that there is zero reason to introduce those approximations because those terms cancel exactly with each other anyway.
 
OK. The ##F_x(x_0, y, z)## term must subsume ##(y-y_0)\frac{\partial F_x}{\partial y}\Big\arrowvert_{x_0, y_0, z_0}## and ##(z-z_0)\frac{\partial F_x}{\partial z}\Big\arrowvert_{x_0, y_0, z_0}##. Thanks.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
994
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K