Derivation of magnetic field of a Solenoid: Biot savart law

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the magnetic field of a solenoid using Biot-Savart's law. Participants explore the implications of treating the solenoid as composed of circular coils and the mathematical treatment of turns per unit length.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the substitution of turn density in the derivation, suggesting that the number of turns per differential length should be an integer.
  • Another participant argues that there is no requirement for the number of turns per differential length to be an integer, providing an example of a coil with a non-integer turn density.
  • Concerns are raised about the use of infinitesimals in the context of turn density, with one participant cautioning against treating differential segments as containing fractional turns.
  • It is noted that the magnetic field can be approximated as being caused by a cylindrical sheet of current, which is a common idealization in such derivations.
  • Participants discuss the integration of contributions to the magnetic field from infinitesimal segments, emphasizing that while individual segments may have zero turns, they still contribute to the overall magnetic field when integrated over a finite range.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the treatment of turn density and the use of infinitesimals in the derivation. There is no consensus on whether the number of turns per differential length must be an integer, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these mathematical treatments.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the idealization of the solenoid as composed of circular coils and the unresolved nature of the mathematical treatment of infinitesimals in this context.

Conductivity
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Hello,

I have seen that biot savart's law works for infinitely narrow wires:
"The formulations given above work well when the current can be approximated as running through an infinitely-narrow wire."

When I wanted to derive the magnetic field of a solenoid, I had to do this substitution:
##n_o = N/L##

## k = n_o dx ##
Where k is the number of turns per dx.. But shouldn't K be an integer? so I can substitute it in the formula for circular coils. That means I have infinite number of turns and turn density of something like ## \frac{a}{dx} ## where a is an integer.

Is there is something wrong or that this is the idealization that we do to the solenoid? Wouldn't it be way off the correct value?

If you want the proof, http://nptel.ac.in/courses/122101002/downloads/lec-15.pdf
Page 8, Example 9.

Thank you in advance.
 
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Conductivity said:
But shouldn't K be an integer?
No reason. If you have an 11 cm coil with 10 turns, you have 90.91 turns/m.

Note: never, never ever write something like "##
\frac{a}{dx}## with ##a## finite".
##dx## is universally seen as an infinitesimal (something that goes to zero). So ##
\frac{a}{dx}## does not exist.
 
BvU said:
No reason. If you have an 11 cm coil with 10 turns, you have 90.91 turns/m.
Don't we idealize a solenoid as a number of circular coils?

https://i.imgur.com/RCO3qcQ.png

If we take a dx piece of this solenoid and treat at as k number of coils,

The equation for a single coil is:
## B = \frac{ u_o i R^2}{2 ( R^2 + x^2)^{\frac{3}{2}}} ##
If dx has 2 turns then we multiply by 2, If it has k turns then we multiply by k. But a dx piece can't have a 2.5 or a fraction of a coil (It doesn't make sense), Can it?
That is why I said ## k = n_o dx ## has to be an integer.
 
Conductivity said:
Don't we idealize a solenoid as a number of circular coils?
We calculate the B field as if it were caused by a cylindrical sheet of current. That is a very good approximation (example 8 already indicates that).

Conductivity said:
If dx has 2 turns then we multiply by 2, If it has k turns then we multiply by k. But a dx piece can't have a 2.5 or a fraction of a coil
Again: do NOT use infinitesimals this way -- it will get you into trouble. A infinitesimal ##dz## piece has zero turns and nevertheless contributes to B with an infinitesimal contribution ##dB## proportional to ##{N\over L}##. It is only when you integrate ##dB## over a finite range in ##z## that you get a finite result. The derivation (it's not a proof) in the pdf is just fine.
 

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