Magnetic flux is the same if we apply the Biot Savart?

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the application of the Biot-Savart law to determine magnetic field intensity at various points around a current-carrying loop. It is acknowledged that magnetic flux is conserved, but there is confusion about whether the same magnetic field intensity can be obtained at different points using Biot-Savart, especially considering distance from the current loops. The presence of magnetic surface currents, even in static conditions, complicates the application of Biot-Savart, as these currents influence the magnetic field distribution. The conversation also touches on the distinction between magnetic surface currents and eddy currents, emphasizing that the former do not involve charge transport. Overall, the complexities of calculating magnetic fields in the presence of magnetization and surface currents are highlighted.
  • #51
jim hardy said:
A lot goes on in a simple piece of iron. I don't think you can write a general equation. From Sylvanus Thompson's 1896 edition of "Dynamo Electric Machinery"

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oops sorry for overlapping snips.

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I have an original 1901 edition and it's a delight .
Your question would i think be best answered by experiment on a specimen of the particular alloy, heat-treatment, shape, size, temperature, and recent magnetization that interests you.

A search on phrase "sylvanus thompson retardation of magentization" also turns up the 1903 edition of his book "Design of Dynamos" with some similar paragraphs. Some of his books are reprinted in India, to the credit of educators there. You might find one an interesting addition to your library.

old jim
you say that in short there is no equation related to required time to reach steady state magnetic field and how magnitude of specific point's magnetic field changes until reaching its final magnetic field magnitude(steady)??
 
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  • #52
mertcan said:
you say that in short there is no equation related to required time to reach steady state magnetic field and how magnitude of specific point's magnetic field changes until reaching its final magnetic field magnitude(steady)??

your question stipulated presence of iron
mertcan said:
Let's think that we put the iron in a steady state magnetic field environment and we know that iron is going to behave like magnet, points in iron are going to have different pole strength at the end, but HOW MUCH time is required for a given specific point in iron to reach its steady magnetic field at the end?? Can we calculate that situation??

and experimenters find iron to be not a simple substance.

This is described as "The Classic Text" on ferromagnetism
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/ferromagnetism-richard-m-bozorth/1101204822?ean=9780780310322

i seem to have misplaced my copy. I hope it surfaces...
IEEE press is reprinting the 1978 edition
if your technical library has a copy or can get one i suggest perusing it. You will find modern mathematical treatments for all the effects noted in Thompson's late 19th century textbooks. But no single equation.
 
  • #53
@jim hardy @Charles Link , initially thanks again for your nice responses. But although jim shared a couple of sources, I do not have a chance now to attain those sources for instance the book is not open source and I do not have it in library. Thus would you mind sharing much more sources with me?? (links, videos, pdf files...)

I am really eager to understand HOW MUCH time is required for a given specific point in iron to reach its steady magnetic field strength at the end when we put the iron in a steady state magnetic field environment and until reaching the steady magnetic field strength at the end, while time passes HOW does the magnitude of specific point's magnetic field or pole strength change
 
  • #54
Try here for Thompson
https://archive.org/details/dynamoelectricma00thomrich
https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/books/DynamoElectricMachinery_10842070
https://www.bookdepository.com/Dyna...nics-Thompson-Silvanus-Phillips/9781110351046

this page might help you find Bozorth in a library nearby
http://www.worldcat.org/title/ferromagnetism/oclc/29017070&referer=brief_results

mertcan said:
I am really eager to understand HOW MUCH time is required for a given specific point in iron to reach its steady magnetic field strength at the end when we put the iron in a steady state magnetic field environment and until reaching the steady magnetic field strength at the end, while time passes HOW does the magnitude of specific point's magnetic field or pole strength change

There's no time term in Ampere's law.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/amplaw.html
upload_2018-5-12_8-8-24.png

So the delays are a property of the material present.Grow your understanding like a garden.
Put your search engine to work. Find articles then search on terms in them.
 

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  • #55
mertcan said:
@jim hardy @Charles Link , initially thanks again for your nice responses. But although jim shared a couple of sources, I do not have a chance now to attain those sources for instance the book is not open source and I do not have it in library. Thus would you mind sharing much more sources with me?? (links, videos, pdf files...)

I am really eager to understand HOW MUCH time is required for a given specific point in iron to reach its steady magnetic field strength at the end when we put the iron in a steady state magnetic field environment and until reaching the steady magnetic field strength at the end, while time passes HOW does the magnitude of specific point's magnetic field or pole strength change
For a small laminated transformer, (3" diameter), I believe the time constant is quite fast: Just a guess is that it is in the 1-2 millisecond range, but I would need futher research to confirm. @jim hardy Might this number ## \tau \approx 2 \, msec ## seem reasonable?
 
  • #56
To what degree of precision ?
Thickness of laminations is the antidote for delay due to eddy current.

Your estimate sounds reasonable for a 60 hz power transformer
a 400 hz transformer has thinner laminations so is faster

but there's still 'creep' and Barkhausen to account for.

i don't know much about high fidelity audio transformers that go to tens of kilohertz .

Ferrite is of course way faster .

That's why I'm reluctant to say "yes", for fear it'll be taken for an absolute answer.
One needs to appreciate the shortcomings of any simple mental model; and be able to put a number on its residual error.

That last few per-cent is difficult to characterize..

I appreciate your desire to give mertcan an answer so he can proceed with his inquiry. In that spirit,
"Sure, in a couple milliseconds most of the little transformers you are likely to encounter will be ~98% of the way to steady state.
But do not forget about the early pioneers and their giant railway dynamos that took minutes to settle."

One of those things that's easy to envision but difficult to calculate. You have to characterize the medium.

Going back to this image - triangle wave current (constant di/dt) should produce square wave voltage , but the corners get rounded off because of lengthy time response.
upload_2018-5-12_10-20-31.png


observe lower trace - that stainless steel bar was not yet settled at 50 miliseconds.
With air core the voltage was textbook perfect square wave. Difference was the magnetic medium.
That little experiment taught me a lot.
That image is the 3 hz response . If you go back to post #50 and look at the 10hz and 60 hz traces , they never get past the rounded corner.

I encourage @mertcan to get some i/o gear for his computer and experiment . We need more students interested in magnetics.
 

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  • #57
jim hardy said:
I encourage @mertcan to get some i/o gear for his computer and experiment . We need more students interested in magnetics.
I agree. I do think for a number of years the basic E&M (electricity and magnetism) has actually been de-emphasized in the college curriculum.
 
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  • #58
Charles Link said:
I do think for a number of years the basic E&M (electricity and magnetism) has actually been de-emphasized in the college curriculum
Yes, we've shortchanged a lot of students.
 
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