Derivation of planetary orbit equation with Lagrangian

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the planetary orbit equation using Lagrangian mechanics. Participants explore the implications of the Lagrangian equations, the general solutions to differential equations related to orbital motion, and the relationships between various constants in these equations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the term $$\dot{φ}$$ is considered constant, despite $$r$$ and $$\dot{φ}$$ being time-dependent variables.
  • Another participant explains that the constancy arises from the Lagrange equation, specifically that $$\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{\varphi}}=0$$ implies $$\frac{\partial L}{\partial \varphi}=0$$.
  • There is a query about the derivation of the solution $$w(φ) = Acos(φ+d)$$, with a request for clarification on the constants involved.
  • A participant provides a detailed explanation of the general solution to the differential equation $$\frac{\mathrm{d}^2 w}{\mathrm{d} \varphi^2}=-w$$, presenting it in terms of sine and cosine functions.
  • Another participant expresses confusion regarding the conditions for the constants $$A$$ and $$\delta$$, questioning the equivalence of the forms $$w(φ)=A \cos(φ+\delta)$$ and $$w(φ)=A_1 \cos φ + A_2 \sin φ$$.
  • One participant asserts that both forms are equivalent and discusses the convenience of using one representation over the other for understanding conic sections.
  • There is a follow-up question about the derivation of the expression for $$\delta$$ in terms of the constants $$A_1$$ and $$A_2$$.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of understanding regarding the implications of the Lagrangian mechanics and the equivalence of different forms of the solution. No consensus is reached on the clarity of the derivation of certain constants.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific equations and constants without fully resolving the relationships or assumptions underlying their derivations. The discussion includes complex mathematical reasoning that may depend on prior knowledge of differential equations and Lagrangian mechanics.

TimeRip496
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I am stuck at this part page 1,
$$\frac{\partial{L}}{\partial{\dot{φ}}}=\mu{r^2}\dot{φ}=const=l------->\dot{φ}=\frac{l}{\mu{r^2}}......(8)$$
Why is this a constant? Isn't r and dφ/dt variables of time?

Source: http://www.pha.jhu.edu/~kknizhni/Mechanics/Derivation_of_Planetary_Orbit_Equation.pdf
 
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it is because ##\frac{\partial L}{\partial \varphi}=0## and due to the Lagrange equation: ##\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot\varphi}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \varphi}## one gets ##\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot\varphi}=0##
 
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wrobel said:
it is because ##\frac{\partial L}{\partial \varphi}=0## and due to the Lagrange equation: ##\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot\varphi}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \varphi}## one gets ##\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot\varphi}=0##
ok Thanks a lot!
I have one more question as to how did the source get this w(φ) = Acos(φ+d)? The equation is below eqn(14) which is stated in here " which has the well known solution w(φ) = Acos(φ+d), where both A and are constants. We can always choose d= 0 by a convenient choice of φ"
 
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The most general solution of the differential equation
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}^2 w}{\mathrm{d} \varphi^2}=-w$$
is given by
$$w(\varphi)=A_1 \cos \varphi+A_2 \sin \varphi,$$
where ##A_1## and ##A_2## are constants of integration. This follows, because for a homogeneous 2nd-order linear differential equation the solution is the linear combination of two arbitrary linearly independent solutions, and cos and sin fulfill these conditions.

Now you can write this general solution also in another form,
$$w(\varphi)=A \cos(\varphi+\delta),$$
where ##A## and ##\delta## are constants. To see this just use the addition theorem for cos
$$w(\varphi)=A \cos \delta \cos \varphi - A \sin \delta \sin \varphi.$$
Comparing with the general solution above you have
$$A_1=A \cos \delta, \quad A_2=-A \sin \delta,$$
and you always find ##A>0## and ##\delta \in (-\pi,\pi]## to fulfill these equations. First we have
$$A=\sqrt{A_1^2+A_2^2}, \quad \delta =-\mathrm{sign} A_2 \arccos \left (\frac{A_1}{\sqrt{A_1^2+A_2^2}} \right).$$
So indeed the given solution is the most general one for the differential equation for ##w##.
 
vanhees71 said:
The most general solution of the differential equation
$$\frac{\mathrm{d}^2 w}{\mathrm{d} \varphi^2}=-w$$
is given by
$$w(\varphi)=A_1 \cos \varphi+A_2 \sin \varphi,$$
where ##A_1## and ##A_2## are constants of integration. This follows, because for a homogeneous 2nd-order linear differential equation the solution is the linear combination of two arbitrary linearly independent solutions, and cos and sin fulfill these conditions.

Now you can write this general solution also in another form,
$$w(\varphi)=A \cos(\varphi+\delta),$$
where ##A## and ##\delta## are constants. To see this just use the addition theorem for cos
$$w(\varphi)=A \cos \delta \cos \varphi - A \sin \delta \sin \varphi.$$
Comparing with the general solution above you have
$$A_1=A \cos \delta, \quad A_2=-A \sin \delta,$$
and you always find ##A>0## and ##\delta \in (-\pi,\pi]## to fulfill these equations. First we have
$$A=\sqrt{A_1^2+A_2^2}, \quad \delta =-\mathrm{sign} A_2 \arccos \left (\frac{A_1}{\sqrt{A_1^2+A_2^2}} \right).$$
So indeed the given solution is the most general one for the differential equation for ##w##.
Thanks a lot for the reply! But i am stuck at this part
and you always find ##A>0## and ##\delta \in (-\pi,\pi]## to fulfill these equations. First we have
$$A=\sqrt{A_1^2+A_2^2}, \quad \delta =-\mathrm{sign} A_2 \arccos \left (\frac{A_1}{\sqrt{A_1^2+A_2^2}} \right).$$
So indeed the given solution is the most general one for the differential equation for ##w##.
Isn't $$\quad \delta=arccos(\frac{A_1}{A})=-arcsin(\frac{A_2}{A})$$?
Besides do you mean that $$w(\varphi)=A \cos(\varphi+\delta),$$ is more general than $$w(\varphi)=A_1 \cos \varphi+A_2 \sin \varphi,$$? If so, I can't see the reason behind it.
 
No, both equations are equivalent, as demonstrated in the previous posting. You can always map from the pair ##(A_1,A_2)## of integration constants to the pair ##(A,\delta)##. It just depends on what you consider more convenient. In this case, it's easier to see that the orbit is a conic section (ellipse, parabola, hyperbola), using the ##(A,\delta)## notation.
 
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vanhees71 said:
No, both equations are equivalent, as demonstrated in the previous posting. You can always map from the pair ##(A_1,A_2)## of integration constants to the pair ##(A,\delta)##. It just depends on what you consider more convenient. In this case, it's easier to see that the orbit is a conic section (ellipse, parabola, hyperbola), using the ##(A,\delta)## notation.
Oh I see. But how did you obtain this $$\quad \delta =-\mathrm{sign} A_2 \arccos \left (\frac{A_1}{\sqrt{A_1^2+A_2^2}} \right).$$?
 

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