Derivative of energy is force?

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    Derivative Energy Force
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between energy, force, and mass, particularly focusing on the derivative of energy and its implications in physics. Participants explore concepts related to kinetic energy, work, and Einstein's mass-energy equivalence, as well as the behavior of mass and momentum at relativistic speeds.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the derivative of energy is considered force, using kinetic energy as an example and suggesting that the derivative leads to a relation involving mass and acceleration.
  • Another participant argues that the derivative of momentum is force, clarifying that the derivative of kinetic energy does not yield force directly and emphasizing the importance of momentum conservation.
  • A different participant points out that the derivative of energy with respect to displacement yields force, referencing the definition of work as the integral of force over distance.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of increasing mass with speed, particularly as one approaches the speed of light, with questions about what happens when force is doubled at relativistic speeds.
  • Some participants discuss the mathematical derivation of force from energy, with one providing a detailed breakdown of the steps involved in relating kinetic energy to force.
  • There is mention of the momentum formula and its behavior as velocity approaches the speed of light, suggesting that momentum can increase indefinitely.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between energy, force, and mass, particularly regarding the implications of relativistic speeds and the interpretation of derivatives. No consensus is reached on these points, and multiple competing views remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight various assumptions, such as the constancy of mass in certain derivations and the interpretation of Einstein's equation. There are unresolved mathematical steps and differing definitions that affect the discussion.

physicsisfeyn
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Why is the derivative of energy force? For example: KE=1/2mv^2 the derivative of which, assuming mass is held constant is KE'= ma. Why is this? What is the significance of this? What are some applications of this?

Additionally, Einstein's famous equation, E=mc^2, relates mass with energy. Does this mean as you approach the speed of light, that force is actually converted into mass? For example, if you have a mass of 1kg traveling with an acceleration of 299,000,000m/s and you double the force (which is 299,000,000N times 2) that some of the force is actually transformed into mass?
 
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welcome to pf!

hi physicsisfeyn! welcome to pf! :smile:

(try using the X2 icon just above the Reply box :wink:)
physicsisfeyn said:
Why is the derivative of energy force? For example: KE=1/2mv^2 the derivative of which, assuming mass is held constant is KE'= ma.

nooo … derivative of momentum is force: d(mv)/dt = ma

d(1/2 mv2)/dt = mv dv/dt = mva

if you mean d(1/2 mv2)/dv, that's momentum, mv (and the meaning is that the laws of physics are invariant under a change of velocity of the observer, so differentiating the conservation of energy wrt v must still give a conservation equation, and the only one left is momentum!)

i don't see any way of getting ma from 1/2 mv2 :confused:
Additionally, Einstein's famous equation, E=mc^2, relates mass with energy. Does this mean as you approach the speed of light, that force is actually converted into mass?

no, e = mc² has nothing to do with the speed of light, the c² has no physical significance: it is simply the conversion factor between J and kg

if energy was measured in light-kilograms (in the same way that distance can be measured in light-years), then the conversion factor would be unnecessary, and the formula would be e = m :wink:
 
Derivative of Energy or Work with respect to displacement s yields force. This is from the definition of work as integral of force over distance s and the basic theorem of calculus.

In the case of kinetic energy taking direvative wrt to s and have in mind that v=ds/dt we have dE/ds=mvdv/ds=mv(dv/dt)(dt/ds)=mavdt/ds=ma.
 
F = dU/dx

and F = dP / dt
 
Okay.

So am I wrong in thinking that mass increases with speed? If so, what happens when you approach the speed of light? If you're right at the barrier, say .9999c, and you double the force, what happens?
 
you can keep increasing the momentum indefinitely

the momentum is m0v/√(1 - v2/c2), which "approaches infinity" as v approaches c …

loosely speaking, doubling the momentum gets you twice as close to c :wink:
 
force times distance = energy
 


tiny-tim said:
i don't see any way of getting ma from 1/2 mv2 :confused:

As somebody else said the derivative of energy with respect to distance is force

Keep it simple and assume the mass stays constant:

d/dx (m v^2 / 2)
= m/2 d/dx (dx/dt)^2
= m/2 dt/dx d/dt (dx/dt)^2
= m/2 dt/dx (2 dx/dt) d^2x/dt^2
= m d^2x/dt^2
= ma

For example the energy stored in a spring = 1/2 K x^2
and the force in the spring = d/dx (1/2 K x^2) = Kx
 

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