Deriving classical potentials from tree diagrams

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving classical potentials from tree-level Feynman processes, specifically focusing on how to transition from S-matrix elements of quantum processes, such as Compton scattering, to classical potentials like the Coulomb potential. The scope includes theoretical approaches and references to relevant literature for graduate students.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks recommendations for books that explain how to derive classical potentials from tree-level Feynman processes.
  • Another participant suggests section 83 of "Quantum Electrodynamics" by Berestetskii et al. for deriving the Breit potential from the S-matrix of electron-positron scattering, noting that they have not seen a derivation for the Compton scattering S-matrix yielding the electron-photon potential.
  • A different participant introduces the concept of building classical potential representations of quantum field theory beyond tree level, mentioning that this includes particle-number-changing potentials and references works on "dressed particle" approaches that address divergences.
  • Some participants mention that textbooks by Sakurai may contain relevant information, particularly under the topic of Born Transformation, and express interest in finding examples for various spin forces.
  • One participant notes that Sakurai's approach involves using the non-relativistic limit of the covariant matrix element to construct an effective three-dimensional potential through Fourier transformation of the tree-level M-matrix element.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the derivation of classical potentials, with some agreeing on the usefulness of specific texts while others introduce alternative approaches and concepts. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best methods and resources for deriving these potentials.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the limitations of existing literature in providing comprehensive examples for different spin forces and the challenges in deriving certain potentials from specific S-matrix elements.

A/4
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I'm looking for a good book for graduate students that indicates how one can obtain a (classical) potential from a tree-level Feynman process. For example, how can one go from the S-matrix of e.g. Compton scattering and derive the Coulomb potential. Any help would be appreciated.
 
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A/4 said:
I'm looking for a good book for graduate students that indicates how one can obtain a (classical) potential from a tree-level Feynman process. For example, how can one go from the S-matrix of e.g. Compton scattering and derive the Coulomb potential. Any help would be appreciated.

I can recommend section 83 in

V. B. Berestetskii, E. M. Livs h itz, L. P. Pitaevskii, "Quantum electrodynamics"

where they derived the Breit potential (Coulomb+ magnetic + spin-orbit + spin-spin) of the electron-positron interaction from the 2nd order S-matrix element of the electron-positron scattering.

The Compton scattering S-matrix elements would yield the electron-photon potential. I have never seen such a derivation.

Eugene.
 
By the way, one can build a "classical" potential representation of QFT beyond the tree level, i.e., including loops etc. In this case, particle-number-changing potentials should be allowed as well. Then in addition to the Coulomb and electron-photons potentials one can get "potentials" for annihilation, bremsstrahlung, etc. This is the idea of the "dressed particle" approach, which also provides a consistent way of dealing with divergences. You can find more info in

O. W. Greenberg, S. S. Schweber, "Clothed particle operators in simple models of quantum field theory" Nuovo Cim. 8 (1958), 378

A. V. Shebeko, M. I. Shirokov, "Unitary transformations in quantum field theory and bound states" Phys. Part. Nucl. 32 (2001), 15; http://www.arxiv.org/abs/nucl-th/0102037

E. V. Stefanovich, "Relativistic quantum dynamics" http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0504062.

Eugene.
 
Perhaps some of the books of Sakurai, too?

For tree level, most books should have it under the topic, or the keyword index, of Born Transformation.

It should be interesting if someone can name a textbook containing examples both for spin 1, spin 0, and spin 2 forces. Or at least for spin 1 and spin 0 forces.
 
arivero said:
Perhaps some of the books of Sakurai, too?

For tree level, most books should have it under the topic, or the keyword index, of Born Transformation.

It should be interesting if someone can name a textbook containing examples both for spin 1, spin 0, and spin 2 forces. Or at least for spin 1 and spin 0 forces.

but Sakurai uses that old [tex]ict[/tex] notation (so if you don't like it, like me these days, try Mandl & Shaw, Peskin & schroeder, see also Merzbacher, Quantum Mechanics)

according to Sakurai, to construct an effective 3-dim potential, once you know the non-relativistic limit of your covariant matrix element (the M-matrix), just Fourier Transform the lowest-order (ie. tree-level) M-matrix element. Something like:
[tex]V=\frac{1}{(2\pi)^3}\int\, \mathcal{M}_{i\rightarrow f} \;e^{i\vec p \cdot \vec x} d^3 p[/tex]
 
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