Did an Israeli Captain Face Consequences for Shooting a Palestinian Schoolgirl?

[Bilal]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1643573,00.html

Officer ignored warnings that teenager was terrified
· Defence says 'confirming the kill' standard practice

The transcript

The following is a recording of a three-way conversation that took place between a soldier in a watchtower, an army operations room and Capt R, who shot the girl

From the watchtower "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward." "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?" "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death." "I think that one of the positions took her out." "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

From the operations room "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"

Watchtower "A girl about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

A few minutes later, Iman is shot from one of the army posts

Watchtower "I think that one of the positions took her out."

Captain R "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

Capt R then "clarifies" why he killed Iman

"This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."

 

[Evo]

Bilal, you need to state what in the story you wish to specifically discuss. Threads of this nature, with nothing more than a link to story aren't going be allowed going forward.

 

[Art]

This was despicable. Perhaps one day Israel will realize it is actions such as this that make people so critical of her and has nothing to do with the jewish religion; though I suspect in reality they already know that. Accusing people who criticize Israel's actions of being anti-semitic is simply a way to deflect attention away from the issue and put their detractors on the defensive.

 

[Hurkyl]

AFAIK, claims of anti-Semitism are based on the perception that some people are far more willing to criticize Israeli actions than those of others, and not just a knee-jerk "OMG, he's criticizing an Israeli, he must be anti-Semetic!" attitude.

 

[Mental Gridlock]

True sometimes but not always.

Also could it be that with Israel there just may be more to criticize? If they did more bad stuff, couldn't someone bring up Israeli atrocities more often because there are more to bring up, not because they're anti-semetic?

 

[Art]

AFAIK, claims of anti-Semitism are based on the perception that some people are far more willing to criticize Israeli actions than those of others, and not just a knee-jerk "OMG, he's criticizing an Israeli, he must be anti-Semetic!" attitude.

One unfortunately expects attocities from terrorist groups as that is what they do and why they are reviled by most people.

One rightly expects a higher standard of behaviour from so called civilised states which is why they are more heavily criticised when they practice the same methods as terrorist scum. In fact it is the terrorists' acts which defiine them and so when states practice these same acts they too become terrorist scum.

One of the problems with the 'war on terror' is it is getting harder and harder to distinguish between the 'good' guys and the 'bad' guys with neither side adhering to the rules of war or the Geneva Conventions or even simple human morals.

 

[kat]

I Guess I Always Thought That One Thing That Defined The Difference Is That In Dealing With The "good Guys" The "bad Guys"..never Had To Worry That Their Children Were Going To Be Used To Attack Them Or Were Going To Be Used As Human Bombs.

 

[Astronuc]

I guess the biggest problem I have with this is -

In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

Of course, I am not there, nor am I in a position of facing suicide bombers, snipers or rocket attacks at any moment.

I find the act of killing any child abhorrent, but then it is no less abhorrent than suicide/homicide bombers blowing up unarmed civilians, especially children.

Here's a novel idea - just simply STOP the violence - period!

 

[ray b]

all most all of the people in this mess are semitic
thats why I dislike the anti-Semitism label
arabs who dislike jews are not racist as they are the very same race
and many jews are also anti -arab but are NOT accusued of being anti-semitic
this mess is about a zionist idea a religious + political idea
and the militant moslem responce to it
with race not a part of it

thats why I am againts both the militants be they jew or moslem
as they are both reglious NUTS with a political agenda

while stoping the violence is a good start
a fair and balanced plan is needed
so the rights of all people are protected
and as far as possible past wrongs are corrected

 

[Art]

I Guess I Always Thought That One Thing That Defined The Difference Is That In Dealing With The "good Guys" The "bad Guys"..never Had To Worry That Their Children Were Going To Be Used To Attack Them Or Were Going To Be Used As Human Bombs.

Can you quote an example where a 3 year old was used as a human bomb please or a 10 year old for that matter? There are however numerous examples of children been killed by both the 'bad guys' and the 'good guys'. PS ARe YoU HaVINg ProbLEMS WitH YouR CAps LoCK?

 

[kat]

Can you quote an example where a 3 year old was used as a human bomb please or a 10 year old for that matter?

um...there was a ten year old suicide bomber in iraq...but I'm trying to find where I mentioned an age...

PS ARe YoU HaVINg ProbLEMS WitH YouR CAps LoCK?

Not sure how that happened...

 

[Art]

um...there was a ten year old suicide bomber in iraq...but I'm trying to find where I mentioned an age...

In the OP the barbarian who killed the little girl was recorded saying that if a 3 year old entered the security zone they were to be shot. That is the context of this discussion.

 

[Mental Gridlock]

all most all of the people in this mess are semitic
thats why I dislike the anti-Semitism label
arabs who dislike jews are not racist as they are the very same race
and many jews are also anti -arab but are NOT accusued of being anti-semitic
this mess is about a zionist idea a religious + political idea
and the militant moslem responce to it
with race not a part of it

Well Jews and Arabs are a little different ethnically speaking, but you're right that it's not so much an ethnic dispute. It's just that there's a significant portion of Muslims, like Iran's president, who are anti-zionist. And sure as heck don't want a state based on a faith so contradictory to the Quran on what they see as their turf. There are some who can't have that; Israel's existence is an insult to them, for this political reason the chaos continues.

 

[Moonbear]

Sadly, there's no way to know if the girl was "scared to death" because of the presence of the soldiers, or because she had been sent as a decoy. The first statement from the watchtower said she was "moving defensively." What does that mean? Do the soldiers have reason to believe that terrorists will use children for suicide missions or other reasons, because the terrorists think nobody will stop a child? I don't know what to think about this...it's horrific that children are being shot, but I also can't imagine having to be the one sitting up in the watchtower trying to decide if a child carrying a backpack might be headed my way with a bomb. Do you risk killing an innocent child, or risk not killing a child being used as a pawn of terrorists and getting yourself and your fellow soldiers killed? War is quite ugly; horrific things happen, and both sides are involved. There's a reason people come back from wars suffering post-traumatic stress disorder and having nightmares and flashbacks, because they see and participate in horrific things that no person should ever have to see or do.

 

[Art]

Sadly, there's no way to know if the girl was "scared to death" because of the presence of the soldiers, or because she had been sent as a decoy. The first statement from the watchtower said she was "moving defensively." What does that mean? Do the soldiers have reason to believe that terrorists will use children for suicide missions or other reasons, because the terrorists think nobody will stop a child? I don't know what to think about this...it's horrific that children are being shot, but I also can't imagine having to be the one sitting up in the watchtower trying to decide if a child carrying a backpack might be headed my way with a bomb. Do you risk killing an innocent child, or risk not killing a child being used as a pawn of terrorists and getting yourself and your fellow soldiers killed? War is quite ugly; horrific things happen, and both sides are involved. There's a reason people come back from wars suffering post-traumatic stress disorder and having nightmares and flashbacks, because they see and participate in horrific things that no person should ever have to see or do.

Did you read the article?

In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.
Although the military speculated that Iman might have been trying to "lure" the soldiers out of their base so they could be attacked by accomplices, Capt R made the decision to lead some of his troops into the open. Shortly afterwards he can be heard on the recording saying that he has shot the girl and, believing her dead, then "confirmed the kill".
"I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over," he said.
Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.

At the time she was killed she was absolutely no threat to the soldiers. It was fellow soldiers who reported Cap'n R who claimed they were 'out to get him' out of religious bigotry which is why I made the point earlier that this seems to be a common defense in Israel.

 

[kcballer21]

Do you risk killing an innocent child, or risk not killing a child being used as a pawn of terrorists and getting yourself and your fellow soldiers killed? War is quite ugly; horrific things happen, and both sides are involved.

If i read the article correctly, this dilemma (I agree with you, a dilemma) is not applicable to this situation. The officer unloaded a clip into a 13 yr old human being. He didn't kill her, he shredded her, if the accusations are true. "Unloaded his clip" at close range, That means bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang... you get the point.
Well, the soldier denies shooting the girl, but says he shot around her, even though the autopsy shows numerous bullet wounds inflicted at close range, including 3 to the head. Since it appears that your post assumes the soldier did shoot the girl numerous times at close range (correct me if I'm wrong), it should not matter that war is ugly, the soldier is guilty of conduct unbecoming. As for whether he is a criminal for this, i agree that an insanity defense wouldn't be unreasonable, though i have my doubts about this guy.
"The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically"." Moral relativism at its worst.

 

[Moonbear]

If i read the article correctly, this dilemma (I agree with you, a dilemma) is not applicable to this situation. The officer unloaded a clip into a 13 yr old human being. He didn't kill her, he shredded her, if the accusations are true. "Unloaded his clip" at close range, That means bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang... you get the point.
Well, the soldier denies shooting the girl, but says he shot around her, even though the autopsy shows numerous bullet wounds inflicted at close range, including 3 to the head. Since it appears that your post assumes the soldier did shoot the girl numerous times at close range (correct me if I'm wrong), it should not matter that war is ugly, the soldier is guilty of conduct unbecoming. As for whether he is a criminal for this, i agree that an insanity defense wouldn't be unreasonable, though i have my doubts about this guy.
"The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically"." Moral relativism at its worst.

Sorry, I thought the debate was over them shooting a "scared to death" child, not over how many times they shot the corpse. I misunderstood the emphasis of what people were getting upset about, if that's the case. From the article, I thought many of the shots hit her backpack (not clear if they also hit her), and were to assure them before approaching that there was nothing that would detonate in the backpack. But, yes, I'd agree with you that numerous shots at close range make it more egregious. I also don't know if she was dead or just wounded by the first shot. Once taking her down and being sure there were no explosives on her, rather than continue shooting to kill, they could have sent her for medical assistance.

I don't know if this is relevant to the situation, but if someone were an intruder in your home and you shot them once or twice, a defense that it was self-defense would probably get you let off by a jury, but if you continued shooting the intruder 15 more times, you'd very likely be serving time for murder.

 

[Mental Gridlock]

This is eerily similar to some Brazilian guy shot to death in London subway last summer. It seems that the fear that terrorists can instill creates some pretty bad trigger-happy impulse responses.

 

[devil-fire]

The army's initial investigation concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically"- who is the army publishing these investigations for? they sound like a farce

 

[Zlex]

There's always looking up the reason why he was aquitted. Apparently Captain R was framed because he wasn't a Jew...I mean 'liked.' But boy isn't that qutie the under reported little nugget.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1132320216117&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

R, who is from Israel's Druse community, spent three months in jail and was only released last February after one of the soldiers confessed that the unit framed him because he was a strict disciplinarian and hence highly unpopular.

Though the media cannot be held completely to the standard that we rely on the judicial system to uphold, neither is it exempt from respecting the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Worse, the military prosecution, perhaps to curry favor with opinion-makers, also assumed R guilty and leaked all too many ostensibly incriminating insinuations, later proven false.

 

[Art]

There's always looking up the reason why he was aquitted. Apparently Captain R was framed because he wasn't a Jew...I mean 'liked.' But boy isn't that qutie the under reported little nugget.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1132320216117&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

He was never charged with offences related to his actual shooting of the girl which is the part that disgusted many people here.

 

[Zlex]

He was never charged with offences related to his actual shooting of the girl which is the part that disgusted many people here.

But charged with what? If we are not talking about his set-up, ie a bloodthirst baby killer who rammed 17 bullets into the body of a fleeing little girl, then his action of shooting the girl was following an unfortunately necessary policy. There have been over 200* suicide bombing attempts performed by minors in Israel. A little girl running through a secure zone is now a clear and present threat in the state of Israel.


Source*

 

[Bilal]

First- The girl was killed in Gaza not inside Israel, and hundreds of meters far from a military camp.

Second - Could you provide a link to support your claim about 200 suicide attacks inside Israel? could you show how the average of these attacks per year?

Third - This story is reported based on military Israeli sources, but the Palestinian have another story about those blood thirsty soldiers.

Fourth - I expect that we all agree that this is barbaric crime; I just wanted to show how the Israeli justice works!

I am highly offended to find people trying to justify murdering of kids in such barbaric by blaming the Palestinian: terrorists, suicide... bla, bla …

But charged with what? If we are not talking about his set-up, ie a bloodthirst baby killer who rammed 17 bullets into the body of a fleeing little girl, then his action of simply killing the girl was following an unfortunately necessary policy. There have been over 200* suicide bombing attempts performed by minors in Israel. A little girl running through a secure zone is now a clear and present threat in the state of Israel.
Source*

 

[Zlex]

First- The girl was killed in Gaza not inside Israel, and hundreds of meters far from a military camp.

Yes, my mistake. It was in the Gaza strip, but it was during the Days of Penitence operation which took place after rocket attacks were launched from Gaza into Sderot (two child fatalities, b.t.w.). I believe buffer zones were marked and set up in Gaza.

Second - Could you provide a link to support your claim about 200 suicide attacks inside Israel?

...I did?

Third - This story is reported based on military Israeli sources, but the Palestinian have another story about those blood thirsty soldiers.

I have no doubt that there are a myriad of views from many people. However, I don't believe that the Guardian could be classified as biased pro-Israel, do you?

Fourth - I expect that we all agree that this is barbaric crime; I just wanted to show how the Israeli justice works!

I don't think so, I mean the guy was clearly set up by his cronies because he dared not to be a Jew. Tape was doctored, etc. Racism, is unfortunately rampant in Israel. As for the policy of firing upon children, I would have to refer to my post above. Child suicide bombers are quite common.

If anyone is wondering why the fact that he was framed is so under reported it's because it clearly doesn't fit the agenda. Quickly buried in Israel because we don't want everyone to know about the rampant amount of racists that exist in Israel. Quickly buried by sources like the Guardian because then the IDF isn't a group of baby hunting murderers.

Sometimes the media digusts me.

I am highly offended to find people trying to justify murdering of kids in such barbaric by blaming the Palestinian: terrorists, suicide... bla, bla …

I would never justify the murder of a child, don't put such words into my mouth. I do not believe that murder is the case. I don't think this man went out of his way to kill a child he believed was innocent, I believe he was trying to protect lives by stopping a potential attack, and got stabbed in the back by his racist cronies.

And please, I didn't blame 'the' Palestinians. If anything I would blame the awful parents these kids must have had. And I am not blind to the fact that children are used in terrorist bombings.

 

[Art]

But charged with what? If we are not talking about his set-up, ie a bloodthirst baby killer who rammed 17 bullets into the body of a fleeing little girl, then his action of shooting the girl was following an unfortunately necessary policy. There have been over 200* suicide bombing attempts performed by minors in Israel. A little girl running through a secure zone is now a clear and present threat in the state of Israel.
Source*

He was charged and acquitted with trying to cover up what happened during and after the shooting. The actual circumstances of the shooting were not part of the court case so for you to suggest his acquittal meant the killing of the girl was 'justified' is a false argument.
One can't help but wonder if pressure was brought to bear on the soldier who claimed it was a conspiracy against Captain R. Although nothing is impossible I for one find it difficult to imagine how such a story could be so quickly contrived by a group of soldiers. Especially the amazing allegation that tapes were edited by soldiers in his unit to support this supposed conspiracy.

A more likely explanation would be that the allegations 'including' the brutal killing of the girl, were true but the IDF and it's military court decided the attendant bad publicity warranted a cover up.

I have no doubt that there are a myriad of views from many people. However, I don't believe that the Guardian could be classified as biased pro-Israel, do you?

What do you mean by this??

p.s. Do you have a source showing where the alleged perpetrators of this conspiracy have been charged in relation to what would be a very serious offence? I would be more inclined to believe in this conspiracy allegation if that were the case.

Also when quoting sources to support controversial contentions would you refrain from citing wikipedia references with this tag

This article needs to be cleaned up to conform to a higher standard of quality.

 

[Zlex]

I for one find it difficult to imagine how such a story could be so quickly contrived by a group of soldiers. Especially the amazing allegation that tapes were edited by soldiers in his unit to support this supposed conspiracy.

A more likely explanation would be that the allegations 'including' the brutal killing of the girl, were true but the IDF and it's military court decided the attendant bad publicity warranted a cover up.

Then why was the coverup not trumped at full volume? What is the point of making a cover-up and then hiding it from everyone? Clearly the fact that he was set up is quite the burried piece of information by the IDF.

Maybe, you're right I just can't see the logic in it. I think its much more likely that they wanted to cover up the amount of racism that exists within the ranks of their soldiers. Racism is probably what leads to most of the atrocities against the palestinians

you have a source showing where the alleged perpetrators of this conspiracy have been charged in relation to what would be a very serious offence? I would be more inclined to believe in this conspiracy allegation if that were the case.

I have been attempting to do some reasearch into the topic, however it is quite difficult to find any information. If you find anything let me know.

 

[Bilal]

There are only two suicide bombers are younger than 18 years. Their age is around 17 years. They did the attacks without the knowledge of their families (one of them was a girl who wanted to revenge for her fiancé).
(P.S: there are more than two American kids (less than 14 years old) who murdered their classmates by guns?!) .In addition to that, the Jews militant settlers in the Palestinian occupied land teach their kids to use weapons and how to kill the Palestinian, could you use the same logic against the American and Israeli kids)

And please, I didn't blame 'the' Palestinians. If anything I would blame the awful parents these kids must have had. And I am not blind to the fact that children are used in terrorist bombings.

 

[Zlex]

There are only two suicide bombers are younger than 18 years. Their age is around 17 years. They did the attacks without the knowledge of their families (one of them was a girl who wanted to revenge for her fiancé).
(P.S: there are more than two American kids (less than 14 years old) who murdered their classmates by guns?!) .In addition to that, the Jews militant settlers in the Palestinian occupied land teach their kids to use weapons and how to kill the Palestinian, could you use the same logic against the American and Israeli kids)

Bilal,

I do my best to remain as unbiased as possible when it comes to the whole Palestinian-Israeli issue. But I am widely effected by what I read and hear and see.

I do know that what you claim is factually incorrect, and I know it just from memory. A few names come to mind, Husam Abdu. Ayat Akhras(sp?), I also remember there were three young boys who tried a sneak attack on Netzarim. I think the use of children 'soldiers' is quite well documented, and unfortunately exceeds far more then two.

I am not trying to say that the Isralies are any better, in fact I'm not saying that at all. I'm merely pointing out the reason for such a policy.

And if you think Columbine did not effect American's thinking on children and guns, you're dead wrong. Look up Allen Newsome, or Tommy Davis.

 

[Bilal]

Bilal,
I do my best to remain as unbiased as possible when it comes to the whole Palestinian-Israeli issue. But I am widely effected by what I read and hear and see.
I do know that what you claim is factually incorrect, and I know it just from memory. A few names come to mind, Husam Abdu. Ayat Akhras(sp?), .

Those are the two people whom already mentioned, their age from 16 years to 17 years. Ayat Akhras lost her fiancé and she decided to revenge. Her family shocked when they knew about her attack. Do not forget that every Israeli in age of 17 – 18 years should join the army.

I also remember there were three young boys who tried a sneak attack on Netzarim. I think the use of children 'soldiers' is quite well documented, and unfortunately exceeds far more then two.

They were three kids: 14 years, 13 years and 13 years. They planned to attack the settlers, they were killed on the borders of the settlement and all what they had is just knives. Their families were shocked, and all the Palestinian resistance organizations asked the families to watch their kids.

I am not trying to say that the Isralies are any better, in fact I'm not saying that at all. I'm merely pointing out the reason for such a policy.
And if you think Columbine did not effect American's thinking on children and guns, you're dead wrong. Look up Allen Newsome, or Tommy Davis.

It is the same as the story of the poor three teenagers whom are murdered near Netsarim. After that accident, Palestinian families and schools start to watch the students in the age of 12 to 16 years all the time.

There is another story you can add it to your memory. After the end of the school courses, a mother found the school bag of her 8 years old child near the door. She opened the bag of her little daughter to find a letter: mum forgive me, I am going to revenge from those ...’’

Her mother called the Palestinian police …. They found her just 100 meter far from the settlements of Nitzarim carrying a knife in her hand.

These accidents are normal reactions of kids and teenagers who watch everyday the Israeli soldiers and settlers mistreating their parents, teachers, cousins …

 

[Zlex]

They were three kids: 14 years, 13 years and 13 years. They planned to attack the settlers, they were killed on the borders of the settlement and all what they had is just knives.

I recall reading that they were also carrying a home made explosive device, I think a pipe-bomb.

These accidents are normal reactions of kids and teenagers who watch everyday the Israeli soldiers and settlers mistreating their parents, teachers, cousins

I do feel that one source of these actions is anger due to the mistreatement of those around them. But there is also the massive glorification of becoming a martyr that seems to exist within the Palestinian youth, blatently instilled through indoctination. I'm sure you've read about the wonderful summer camps some of the Palestinain youths attend. When you ask children what they want to be when they grow up they should say a doctor, or a laywer, not a martyr, and that is hardly normal.

Even from the interview with Husam you get the feeling that something isn't quite right. Yes, he expresses that he wants to hurt the Israelis because they hurt him:

Just like they came and caused our parents sadness and suffering they too should feel this. Just like we feel this - they should also feel it.

But then from the rest of his statements I get the stark feeling that his reasons aren't so well grounded.

The reason was because my friend was killed.

The second reason I did it is because I didn't want to go to school.

My parents forced me to go to school and I didn't feel like going.

I get the distinct feeling that other factors may have played a major role in his decision.

It's not suicide - it's martyrdom.

I would become a martyr and go to my God. It's better than being a singer or a footballer. It's better than everything.

What is the source of such nonesense?

Mohammed, a 14-year-old boy, draws himself with explosives strapped to his body, ready to blow himself to pieces if it means killing Jews.

"Yes," he says, when asked if he wants to be a suicide bomber. "I want to liberate Palestine and be part of the revolution."


The boys are told that it is good to kill and good to die

The boys are shown pictures of those who have already died in the conflict with Israel.

They are taught that to give their lives is to be guaranteed a place in heaven.

And to be a suicide bomber is one of the highest forms of martyrdom.

They will be greeted in paradise by 70 virgins
BBC NEWS

As I've said before I am highly influenced by the things that I read and hear on the news. I think that the Israelis have more then a few reasons to worry that children may be carrying explosive devices.