Did Einstein have a Physical Interpretation of Frames?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the physical interpretation of frames in the context of relativity, specifically whether Einstein had a clear interpretation of frames represented by four orthogonal vectors, including one timelike and three spacelike vectors. Participants explore the implications of this interpretation, particularly in relation to rigid motion and the concept of Born rigidity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on the interpretation of frames as representing sticks and a clock, noting that this interpretation may be problematic.
  • Another participant suggests that Einstein's popular writings on relativity, particularly "The Meaning of Relativity," may provide insights into this interpretation.
  • A participant questions the nature of the problems associated with the interpretation and requests references to support their inquiry.
  • It is proposed that the issues may relate to the problem of rigid motion in relativity, with a reference to "principles of quantum general relativity" mentioned as a source that is no longer accessible.
  • A more detailed explanation is provided regarding the conditions under which Born rigidity affects the interpretation of frame fields versus frames themselves, emphasizing that local Lorentz frames can still be interpreted as rigid under certain conditions.
  • The discussion includes technical details about the mathematical conditions necessary for constructing a rigid coordinate chart and the implications of Born rigidity for different observers.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of Born rigidity for the interpretation of frames. While some argue that the lack of Born rigidity does not undermine the interpretation of frames as rigid structures, others highlight the complexities involved in relating frame fields to rigid motion. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes technical assumptions regarding the nature of frame fields and the mathematical definitions of Born rigidity. The implications of these assumptions on the interpretation of frames are not fully resolved.

center o bass
Messages
545
Reaction score
2
By a frame I mean four orthogonal vectors for which one is timelike and the others are spacelike.

In a bypassing some time ago I read something about the basis vectors in a frame representing sticks and and a clock. However, the author also noted that this interpretation was problematic. I would like very much like to read a more elaborate discussion on the issue.

Did Einstein have an interpretation, can you explain it, or can you refer me to some good literature on it?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
center o bass said:
In a bypassing some time ago I read something about the basis vectors in a frame representing sticks and and a clock. However, the author also noted that this interpretation was problematic.

What is problematic about it? A reference would be useful.
 
WannabeNewton said:
What is problematic about it? A reference would be useful.
I think it is related to the problem of rigid motion in relativity. I read it in "principles of quantum general relativity" which was on Google books, but is no more.
 
center o bass said:
I think it is related to the problem of rigid motion in relativity. I read it in "principles of quantum general relativity" which was on Google books, but is no more.

Born rigidity would only be a problem when speaking of frame fields, not frames themselves. Note that when I say "frame" or "frame field" I mean specifically local Lorentz frames or fields thereof.

More precisely, the issue only arises if the frame field ##\{e_{\alpha}\}##, with ##e_0 = u## the 4-velocity field of some time-like congruence, is such that ##\mathcal{L}_{u} e_{i} \neq 0## for if ##\mathcal{L}_{u} e_{i} =0## then the always valid interpretation of each local Lorentz frame as three orthogonal meter sticks (or gyroscopes) and an ideal clock can also be carried over to the frame field itself as ##\mathcal{L}_{u} e_{i} =0## guarantees that if a given observer initially locks his meter sticks to those of an infinitesimally neighboring observer then they will remain locked for all (proper) time. Using these axes one can then obviously construct a rigid coordinate chart consisting of a lattice of rigid meter sticks and clocks.

Now if such a frame field exists for this time-like congruence then note that ##h(e_0, e_{\alpha}) = 0, h(e_i,e_j) = \delta_{ij}## since ##g(e_{\alpha},e_{\beta}) = \eta_{\alpha\beta}##, where ##h## is the spatial metric, and so we have simply that [tex]\mathcal{L}_u h(e_{\alpha},e_{\beta}) = 0 \\ \Rightarrow (\mathcal{L}_u h)(e_{\alpha},e_{\beta}) + h(e_{\alpha}, \mathcal{L}_u e_{\beta}) + h(\mathcal{L}_u e_{\alpha}, e_{\beta}) = (\mathcal{L}_u h)(e_{\alpha},e_{\beta}) = 0 \\ \Rightarrow \mathcal{L}_u h = 0[/tex] which is, by definition, Born rigidity.

In other words, in order to construct a rigid coordinate chart i.e. a rigid lattice of meter sticks and clocks, which as stated above requires the existence of a frame field that is Lie transported by the 4-velocity field of the time-like congruence of interest, one requires that said congruence be Born rigid. This means that for non-Born rigid fields of observers, one can still attach to each observer a local Lorentz frame and interpret each as a set of three meter sticks and a clock, but the so obtained frame field will not correspond to a rigid lattice of such meter sticks adapted to the entire field of observers. This basically means that if we want to construct a rigid coordinate chart adapted to some family of observers, it would be necessary for them to be undergoing Born rigid motion e.g. they could be following orbits of a time-like Killing field.

So the lack of Born rigidity does not pose a threat to the interpretation of frames themselves as three orthogonal meter sticks and an ideal clock.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 41 ·
2
Replies
41
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 34 ·
2
Replies
34
Views
4K
  • · Replies 69 ·
3
Replies
69
Views
6K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
965
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K