Reference Frame Usage in General Relativity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definitions and practical usage of reference frames in General Relativity, particularly as defined in the book "General Relativity for Mathematicians" by Sachs and Wu. Participants explore the mathematical definitions of observers and reference frames, their implications, and how these concepts are applied in various contexts, including the classification of reference frames and the construction of adapted coordinate systems.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants define a reference frame as a collection of observers, characterized by a timelike, future-pointing vector field.
  • There is a discussion about how to express physical quantities relative to a reference frame and convert results between different reference frames.
  • One participant notes that the book lacks practical examples following the definitions and instead focuses on classifying reference frames based on synchronizability.
  • Another participant explains that a global inertial frame is a simple example of a reference frame constituted by a family of observers at rest relative to each other.
  • Concerns are raised about the necessity of a naturally adapted chart for using a reference frame, with some arguing that it is not required.
  • Participants discuss the construction of charts from a single vector field, noting that the choice of surfaces of constant time is not unique and can depend on the configuration of worldlines.
  • There is mention of timelike congruences and their properties, including the expansion scalar, shear tensor, and vorticity tensor, which are relevant to certain physical calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of naturally adapted charts for reference frames and the implications of the definitions provided in the book. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the practical applications of these definitions.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the lack of practical examples in the referenced book, the dependence on definitions of synchronizability, and the unresolved nature of how to construct adapted charts from vector fields.

leo.
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In the book General Relativity for Mathematicians by Sachs and Wu, an observer is defined as a timelike future pointing worldline and a reference frame is defined as a timelike, future pointing vector field Z. In that sense a reference frame is a collection of observers, since its integral lines are all observers according to this defintiion. This definition is also highly employed by the brazilian physicist Waldyr Alves Rodrigues Jr in his publications.

I particularly like this definition from a mathematical standpoint, because it is extremely simple and can even be intuitive - usually we really consider intuitively a reference frame as a collection of observers at rest with respect to each other.

Following this definition one defines a naturaly adapted coordinate system x^\mu to a reference frame Z to be a chart on spacetime M such that \frac{\partial}{\partial x^0} is timelike, \frac{\partial}{\partial x^i} is spacelike and the spacelike components of Z with respect to this basis are zero.

In basic treatments of Special and General Relaitivity, one usually needs to resolve physical quantities relative to reference frames, and relate different reference frames, in order to convert measurements.

My question really becomes: how these definitions gets used in practice in order to (1) express physical quantities with respect to a reference frame and (2) convert results from different reference frames?
 
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leo. said:
how these definitions gets used in practice in order to (1) express physical quantities with respect to a reference frame and (2) convert results from different reference frames?

Does the book you are reading give any examples?
 
PeterDonis said:
Does the book you are reading give any examples?

Not much examples really. After the definition it immediately gets to classify reference frames according to synchronizability. Actually in one exercise he defines a reference frame and asks to (i) show its a reference frame and (ii) show it is not synchronizable according to his definition. The said reference frame is defined in Minkowski spacetime and is: Q=\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{1-x^2}}\left(\dfrac{\partial}{\partial t} + x \dfrac{\partial}{\partial y}\right)
it is then quite easy to show that (i) g(Q,Q)=1 so that it is a timelike vector field and (ii) g(Q,\partial_t)>0 which shows it is future directed using the time direction given by the global vector field \partial_t. Synchronizability then is discussed computing the one-form \alpha = g(Q,\cdot) and its derivative d\alpha.
I also computed the integral lines of this vector field imposing initial conditions x\circ \gamma(0)=(t_0,x_0,y_0,z_0) and found out that the coordinate expression of the curves are x\circ\gamma(\tau)=\left(t_0+\dfrac{\tau}{\sqrt{1-x_0^2}}, x_0, y_0+\dfrac{x_0}{\sqrt{1-x_0^2}}\tau,z_0\right)

As for computations it is quite straightforward. However I still don't see how all of this gets used. For example (i) how does one define a reference frame in the first place, i.e., where such a definition for Q comes from? (ii) it seems that to use a reference frame we need a naturaly adapted chart, is that true? And anyway how does one get such chart built out of a single vector field?

From a mathematical perspective the definitions are quite nice, I've seem no GR book define reference frame up to this one. But as for how this is used in practice, I'm quite unsure yet. Have you ever seem this approach before?
 
leo. said:
where such a definition for QQ comes from?

From the idea that a reference frame is constituted by a family of observers. The simplest example is a global inertial frame in flat spacetime, which is constituted by a family of observers, all inertial and all at rest relative to each other.

leo. said:
it seems that to use a reference frame we need a naturaly adapted chart, is that true?

No. You have illustrated that by computing the worldlines of the reference frame in the exercise you describe, in a standard inertial chart on Minkowski spacetime. It should be obvious that this chart is not adapted to the reference frame in question.

leo. said:
how does one get such chart built out of a single vector field?

The timelike worldlines mark out the spatial coordinate positions in the chart (i.e., each worldline has a unique set of spatial coordinates ##x_1, x_2, x_3##). The choice of how to mark out surfaces of constant time is not unique, but often there is a natural choice--for example, if all of the worldlines are orthogonal to a family of spacelike hypersurfaces, that family is a natural choice for the surfaces of constant time.
 
In physics textbooks, a unit future-directed timelike vector field is often called timelike congruences. Most of what I read in physics textbooks is specialized to the case of geodesic timelike congruences. Wiki has a treatment that covers non-geodesic timelike congruences, though. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Congruence_(general_relativity)&oldid=737290097.

Properties of physical interest that one can calculate from a congruence are the expansion scalar, the shear tensor, and the vorticity tensor, which describes whether a small volume element grows in volume/srhinks, changes shape, or rotates. This is used in Raychaudhuri's equation, for instance, and is relevant to some focussing theorems IIRC.

There is a treatment of geodesic congruences in Poissons "A relativistis toolkit", and a very brief treatment of geodesic congruences in Wald's "General Relativity". (Neither of these treat the non-geodesic case as Wiki does).
 

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