History Do ancient names persist in modern culture?

[DennisN]

Germany was in the Roman Empire

Please note that The Holy Roman Empire has very, very little to do with the ancient Roman Empire, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire#Name. If I remember correctly, it was a sort of a name theft/name lending to give that empire more prestige. But some parts of Germany have been in the original Roman Empire, e.g. Trier, which has some very fine preserved Roman architecture.

 

[fresh_42]

It sounds very funny to me. I understand German pretty well (I've learned it in school and I've also been to Germany and Austria many times), but I would not have understood the plattdütsch counting . To my ears, it sounds a bit like Dutch, which I don't understand very well.

Dutch is different again. But if you look at (listen to) the numbers, then replacing "d" by "th", "ig" by "y" then you have the English words, at least a couple of them.

The real funny part was as I saw him, born in Ethiopia, walking around in a Canadian village deep on the landside, talking this very Northern dialect / language to the people there. I was constantly laughing.

 

[fresh_42]

Please note that The Holy Roman Empire has very, very little to do with the ancient Roman Empire, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire#Name. If I remember correctly, it was a sort of a name theft/name lending to give the empire more prestige. But some parts of Germany has been in the Roman Empire, e.g. Trier, which has some very fine preserved Roman architecture.

Trier is west of the Rhine, far west! It's delta is on the left border of this map, going south. So the entire part where they wrote "Holy Roman Empire" wasn't Roman at all. However, in the middle ages, the German kings called themselves "King of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation". This had nothing to do with the Roman Empire, except that they at times ruled as far south as Italy.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Voltaire once said that the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

 

[DennisN]

Voltaire once said that the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

Yeah, I remember that quote. It is incredibly funny .

 

[Klystron]

Updated table of (Western) solar system object names in modern order. Names may be associated with a mythological figure but modern names in several languages appear to converge due to common usage. For instance Luna refers to Terra's satellite, the Moon, associated with mythological character Diana among many others. Sun, Sol, Helios, Solen associates with many dieties and characters including Ra, Horus and Apollo.

This incomplete table could be populated with female character names beyond Venus, Terra and Luna that may not have survived translation by male scholars. What names will survive in future cultures?

English	Latin	Greek	Swedish	French
Sun Mercury Venus Earth Moon Mars Jupiter Saturn	Sol Mercury Venera Terra Luna Mars Jupiter Saturn	Helios Hermes Aphrodite Gaea Selene Aris, Ares Dios (Zeus) Kronos	Solen Merkurius Venus Jorden (Earth) Månen Mars Jupiter Saturnus	Soleil Mercure Vénus Terre Lune Mars Jupiter Saturne

 

[DennisN]

Updated table of (Western) solar system object names in modern order.

And in German the Sun is "die Sonne", the Earth is "die Erde" and the Moon is "der Mond". I don't know/remember the German names of the other planets, but I guess they are similar to the Latin names.

 

[fresh_42]

And in German the Sun is "die Sonne", the Earth is "die Erde" and the Moon is "der Mond". I don't know/remember the German names of the other planets, but I guess they are similar to the Latin names.

More like the English names:

Merkur
Venus
Erde
Mars
Ceres
Jupiter
Saturn
Uranus
Neptun
Pluto
Eris

 

[pinball1970]

Physicist Xerxes Tata has a name that goes back 2500 years, as does the many Alexanders. And along Biblical lines, don't forget "Adam".

The creation stories from the Bible were taken from earlier Sumerian, Babylonian and Egyptian myths. Moses is Egyptian and is still in use it means 'son of Mo'. The Adam /apple story would have been put to paper around the 6th century BCE so that is still pretty ancient, just not as ancient as claimed. 4000BCE.

 

[DennisN]

The creation stories from the Bible were taken from earlier Sumerian, Babylonian and Egyptian myths

Yes, I learned that a couple of years ago, it is fascinating. There is also the concept of the flood myth (Noah in the Bible) which appears in the very early Epic of Gilgamesh (ca 2100 BCE). The Gilgamesh flood myth is very similar to the story in the Bible. It is about a great flood and a boat that is being built which later is loaded with animals.

 

[Klystron]

Voltaire once said that the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

The rector of my first college, Reverend Peter Krieg, compared that famous quote with East Germany during the Soviet era. The German Democratic Republic was not a German idea, not a democracy, and a republic in name only; leading to historical comparisons to the old HRE and the Peace of Westphalia with the then-current USSR and Warsaw Pact.

 

[pinball1970]

Yes, I learned that a couple of years ago, it is fascinating. There is also the concept of the flood myth (Noah in the Bible) which appears in the very early Epic of Gilgamesh (ca 2100 BCE). The Gilgamesh flood myth is very similar to the story in the Bible. It is about a great flood and a boat that is being built which later is loaded with animals.

Yes there are several flood stories that pre date the Bible by many centuries. Those stories were adapted and readapted by later cultures.
Noah is an old name and is prevalent southern states USA
This website gives the most popular by state Noah is number 1 in Louisiana
http://www.babynamewizard.com/the-most-popular-baby-names-in-louisiana

 

[fresh_42]

Yes, I learned that a couple of years ago, it is fascinating. There is also the concept of the flood myth (Noah in the Bible) which appears in the very early Epic of Gilgamesh (ca 2100 BCE). The Gilgamesh flood myth is very similar to the story in the Bible. It is about a great flood and a boat that is being built which later is loaded with animals.

Damnit. I always thought the flood would have been a description of the Santorini outbreak, but that was not as far in history. It might still explain the Minoan, if not directly, so maybe as a consequence, but it won't explain Noah anymore.

 

[DennisN]

Yes there are several flood stories that pre date the Bible by many centuries. Those stories were adapted and readapted by later cultures.

If you have details about other flood myths, please enlighten us! I don't know about other flood myths. Also, I am under the impression that the Sumerian myth is the oldest, but I am not sure about this.

 

[Michael Price]

The creation stories from the Bible were taken from earlier Sumerian, Babylonian and Egyptian myths. Moses is Egyptian and is still in use it means 'son of Mo'. The Adam /apple story would have been put to paper around the 6th century BCE so that is still pretty ancient, just not as ancient as claimed. 4000BCE.

No, moses means just "son of" or created by, as in Thutmoses = son of Thoth

 

[pinball1970]

If you have details about other flood myths, please enlighten us! I don't know about other flood myths. Also, I am under the impression that the Sumerian myth is the oldest, but I am not sure about this.

I don't want to derail the thread, unless you know if Marduk and Utnapishtim is still in circulation as a name?
I'll check my sources, I read there were earlier stories that we know of and these may not be the earliest.

 

[Klystron]

Expanded table of solar system objects known to the ancients to include German. Ordered columns alphabetically by language; rows by distance from the Sun.

English	French	German	Greek	Latin	Swedish
Sun Mercury Venus Earth Moon Mars Jupiter Saturn	Soleil Mercure Vénus Terre Lune Mars Jupiter Saturne	Sonne Merkur Venus Erde Mond Mars Jupiter Saturn	Helios Hermes Aphrodite Gaea Selene Aris, Ares Dios (Zeus) Kronos	Sol Mercury Venera Terra Luna Mars Jupiter Saturn	Solen Merkurius Venus Jorden (Earth) Månen Mars Jupiter Saturnus

Interesting variations in modern names for the Sun and Earth. Yet notice with the exception of Greek identical names for planets Mars and Jupiter in the listed languages, possibly because neither name follows classical Latin form?

 

[fresh_42]

Interesting variations in modern names for the Sun and Earth.

We still have all ancient words in use:
Earth related is 'irdisch' or 'irden', but also 'terrestrisch' if in contrast to space. O.k. 'Gaia' isn't in use anymore.
Sun related is 'sonnig' (weather) but still 'solar' (technical), too, or 'helios' in terms like 'heliopause' or 'heliozentrisch'.

 

[pinball1970]

No, moses means just "son of" or created by, as in Thutmoses = son of Thoth
[/QUOTE
I will check my source on that, History of the Bible lands BC, it's From 1977

 

[Michael Price]

Expanded table of solar system objects known to the ancients to include German. Ordered columns alphabetically by language; rows by distance from the Sun.

English	French	German	Greek	Latin	Swedish
Sun Mercury Venus Earth Moon Mars Jupiter Saturn	Soleil Mercure Vénus Terre Lune Mars Jupiter Saturne	Sonne Merkur Venus Erde Mond Mars Jupiter Saturn	Helios Hermes Aphrodite Gaea Selene Aris, Ares Dios (Zeus) Kronos	Sol Mercury Venera Terra Luna Mars Jupiter Saturn	Solen Merkurius Venus Jorden (Earth) Månen Mars Jupiter Saturnus

Interesting variations in modern names for the Sun and Earth. Yet notice with the exception of Greek identical names for planets Mars and Jupiter in the listed languages, possibly because neither name follows classical Latin form?

Before the Greeks realized the morning star and the evening star were the same planet they called them Phosphorus and Hesperus, respectively.

 

[Klystron]

We still have all ancient words in use:
Earth related is 'irdisch' or 'irden', but also 'terrestrisch' if in contrast to space. O.k. 'Gaia' isn't in use anymore.
Sun related is still 'solar', or 'helios' in terms like 'heliopause' or 'heliozentrisch'.

Variations of 'Gaia' and 'Gaea' have made a comeback in literature and science. For example SF author John Varley published his 'Gaean Trilogy' -- "Titan", "Wizard", "Demon" -- named after a space artifact called Gaea who nurtures living creatures within a large torus habitat orbiting Saturn.

Variations of the name also appear in papers discussing, for instance, the role of life in atmosphere constituents and the Gaian Hypothesis.

Thanks for the German derivatives. I left English derivatives and modifiers off the revised tables as more languages were added but they really add value IMO showing how previous cultures influence proper names and modern culture.

 

[Klystron]

More examples of ancient names in modern culture appear for example in a Hungarian television serial derived from a Finnish tele-novel originally broadcast in Suomi. Suomi and Magyar share cultural roots within Ugric languages; i.e., Finno-Ugric peoples. The Huns mixed with the Urgians producing modern English word Hungarian.

The television serial loosely translated as "Golden Life" or "Our Good Life" features a middle aged hustler and sometimes conman named "Attila" as in Attila the Hun, called Atti, whose name becomes a source of merriment and irony throughout the teleplay. Their Soviet general father named Attila's younger brother "Tamerlane", a name used only in official documents as everyone calls him Tibbi. To balance the names of famous Huns we have wealthy Family friend Uncle Erde. Note that "der Erde" is German for the Earth.