Do Fundamental Particles Experience Heat?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether fundamental particles experience heat and the nature of temperature at the particle level. Participants explore concepts related to thermal properties, energy states, and the definitions of fundamental particles, with implications for both theoretical and experimental contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that heat is a macroscopic definition of energy change, suggesting that fundamental particles do not experience heat in the same way larger systems do.
  • Others argue that any particle not at absolute zero would have a temperature, questioning the applicability of temperature to fundamental particles.
  • There is a contention regarding whether fundamental particles have internal energy, with some asserting that they do not due to their lack of constituent parts.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of particle division, with conflicting views on whether dividing a particle leads to smaller particles or if it can result in a non-existent state.
  • Participants clarify that fundamental particles are defined as not having substructure, with some emphasizing that this definition could change with new evidence.
  • There are discussions about the nature of point particles, with some participants expressing confusion about the implications of this concept.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on whether fundamental particles can be said to have temperature or thermal properties, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of particle structure and energy states.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of temperature and heat, as well as the unresolved nature of particle structure and energy states at the fundamental level.

one_raven
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Heat is a product of excited energy states of the fundamental particles that make up atoms, correct?
So do the particles, themselves, get "hot" - or is heat just experienced as radiation on the macroscopic scale?

Do neutrons, for example, have a thermal property at all?
 
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yes, heat is a macroscopic definition of a change in energy (which can be produced by a particle moving to a less excited state). When you get to a small enough particle, we see heat as only a change in energy. Therefore, the neutrons would get excited, bounce around faster, and produce radiation, but they would not become "warmer".

so, in essence, Heat is only a macroscopic quantity.
 
one_raven said:
Do neutrons, for example, have a thermal property at all?

Wouldn't any particle that was not at absolute zero have a temperature?
 
bland said:
Wouldn't any particle that was not at absolute zero have a temperature?

Fundamental particles do not have a temperature, as temperature is a measure of the internal energy of an object, which is the result of many random motions of its constituent particles. Fundamental particles are not made up of any other particles, so they don't have internal energy.
 
If we divide a particle then we always get smaller particle because it would never become zero ?
 
Thanks UltrafastPED for increasing my knowledge.o:)
 
one_raven said:
So do the particles, themselves, get "hot"

If you have a collection of neutrons, and have them all moving randomly ... then yes, you could define a temperature. This would be appropriate for a neutron star, or perhaps an excited nucleus.

Or considering any collection of fundamental particles - then it is appropriate for the early times of the big bang - and is how many of the estimates are carried out.
 
UltrafastPED said:
Wrong. Please review "elementary particles": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_particle

The first line on the wikipedia page is "In particle physics, an elementary particle or fundamental particle is a particle whose substructure is unknown, thus it is unknown whether it is composed of other particles."

I can be not wrong :smile:
 
  • #10
The second a sub structure is found the particle ceases to be considered elementary. Elementary particles are not composed of other particles, by definition. The electron is considered an elementary particle due to evidence and will only be considered non-fundamental if new evidence arises.
 
  • #11
Infinite/Zero said:
The first line on the wikipedia page is "In particle physics, an elementary particle or fundamental particle is a particle whose substructure is unknown, thus it is unknown whether it is composed of other particles."

I can be not wrong :smile:

Wikipedia pages on the topic of elementary particles, electroweak theory, Standard model, etc... are fairly poor.
 
  • #12
one_raven said:
Heat is a product of excited energy states of the fundamental particles that make up atoms, correct?
So do the particles, themselves, get "hot" - or is heat just experienced as radiation on the macroscopic scale?

Do neutrons, for example, have a thermal property at all?

Worth pointing out that neutrons are not fundamental particles.
 
  • #13
If a fundamental particle change shape then it experience heat ?
Fundamental particles also need energy [to maintain there body(structure)] and [exist] ?
 
  • #14
They don't have shape or structure. Not as far as researchers can tell. They are point particles. They occupy no, or an infinitesimal amount of volume.
 
  • #15
ModusPwnd said:
They don't have shape or structure.
Means we do not know know their shape or structure ?

They are point particles.
Means they are sphere ?

They occupy no.
Means their volume is zero ?
 
  • #16
Infinite/Zero said:
Means we do not know know their shape or structure ?
No. Comon... They have no shape or structure means they have no shape or structure. Of course new evidence could change that, but that is the case for all conclusions in science.

Infinite/Zero said:
Means they are sphere ?
No. A point is not a sphere.

Infinite/Zero said:
Means their volume is zero ?

Yes. Or infinitesimal. Ill leave it to the experts to distinguish between those.
 
  • #17
ModusPwnd said:
No. A point is not a sphere.

What do you mean by point particles ?
please to me sir. I am confused.
 
  • #18
A "point particle" is a mathematical abstraction. It treats the particle as if it were a single point rather than having volume and taking up space.
 
  • #19
Thank you Hallsoflvy
 

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