Do Steel Molecules Move Simultaneously or Sequentially?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Frangelo
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the movement of molecules in a steel rod when a force is applied to one end. Participants explore whether the molecules move simultaneously or sequentially, considering the implications of molecular interactions and the nature of force transmission in solids.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether point S moves before point N, or if they move simultaneously, suggesting that molecular movement might be sequential due to the propagation of force.
  • Another participant asserts that point S moves before point N, as the disturbance must propagate at the speed of sound in the material, indicating a delay in movement.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of point S moving before the adjacent molecule has moved, leading to questions about whether molecules occupy the same space temporarily or are forced closer together.
  • Some participants propose that the molecules are forced closer than their preferred spacing, likening the interaction to springs connecting the molecules, which allows for some degree of compression.
  • There is mention of Coulomb forces acting within the material, which may influence the spacing of molecules during deformation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of molecular movement, with some suggesting sequential movement and others proposing simultaneous movement. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact mechanism of molecular interaction during force application.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of molecular interactions and the limitations of their models, including assumptions about molecular behavior and the nature of force transmission in solids.

Frangelo
Messages
18
Reaction score
0
Maybe a silly question, but I nevertheless interested in the answer.

A steel rod oriented north south sits on a table. Consider two molecules, N and S, at the the north and sound end of rod respectively.

A force in the northerly direction is applied on point S of the rod and the rod moves 1 inch north.

My question is basically, does point S move before point N or does point N move before point S, or do they actually move simultaneously to the limit of our observational powers?

What I'm wondering is, at the molecular level, if you imagine the steel molecules to be incompressible spheres (like glass marbles in column) in a lattice, each sphere tangent to its neighbor, then in order for a sphere at the at the south end to move in the northerly direction, its neighbor to the north must move before it can move into the space the neighbor formerly occupied. So that suggests the idea that the force is transmitted down the rod to the end of rod at the north end, and the first movement occurs at point N moves an infinitessmal distance northward (pushing air out of the way) which then makes room for the sphere at Point a's neighbor to the south to move into the space it formerly occupied and so on. So on the molecular level, while the force is applied at point S and travels North, the movement starts at the north end and "travels" to the south end. Alternatively I guess, the idea that molecules are better pictures as "compressible elastic" sphere, which deform but exert pressure when deformed (like a ballon), so the steel rod moves in the same way a column of balloons in a tube might move.

The mechanism I can't quite understand is the one in which the two points N and S move at precisely the same moment, and how to understand how that could happen? How does the the molecule at point N "know" to move when a pressure is a applied at point "S"?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Frangelo said:
A steel rod oriented north south sits on a table. Consider two molecules, N and S, at the the north and sound end of rod respectively.

A force in the northerly direction is applied on point S of the rod and the rod moves 1 inch north.

My question is basically, does point S move before point N or does point N move before point S, or do they actually move simultaneously to the limit of our observational powers?
The point S moves before the point N. Before the point N can react to the force applied at S the disturbance must propagate along the length of the rod. It does so at the speed of sound in the material.

The resulting delay is well within our observational powers. Here is a similar experiment by one of our forum members with modest lab equipment:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=4414855#post4414855

Note, that he shows some further refinements on the next page.
 
Thanks! But still wondering then, if point S moves north, before the molecule immediately to the north of it has moved, that suggests either the two molecules are occupying the same space at the same time. Is that what is going on? Or maybe more like the molecules are forced closer to each other than they would like to be? Like magnets repelling each other?
 
I've never actually studied this but I would think that the molecules inside the material get forced closer together, then the Coulomb forces inside the material push them apart.
 
Frangelo said:
Thanks! But still wondering then, if point S moves north, before the molecule immediately to the north of it has moved, that suggests either the two molecules are occupying the same space at the same time. Is that what is going on? Or maybe more like the molecules are forced closer to each other than they would like to be? Like magnets repelling each other?

The latter - they're forced closer to each other than they want to be.

You can think of the molecules of an object as if they're connected by springs, and the stiffer these springs, the more rigid the object. But no matter how stiff they are, there's always some tiny amount of give.
 
Frangelo said:
Or maybe more like the molecules are forced closer to each other than they would like to be?
Yes, they are forced closer than their equilibrium spacing. That is why it is often called a compression wave.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 62 ·
3
Replies
62
Views
10K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 69 ·
3
Replies
69
Views
17K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K