Do you suffer from an affective disorder?

[cobalt124]

...freedom from worry is not a realistic goal...

I don't think it is either, but...

...or even possible...

...the problem with worry and depression and the like is that it cripples your choices, life doesn't seem as open ended and as surprising as it should, so I would say "never say never".

...since I have had it as long as I can remember...

My issues have dogged me all my life as well, I had them pegged as "normal". I now know better.

 

[rhody]

I don't think it is either, but...

...the problem with worry and depression and the like is that it cripples your choices, life doesn't seem as open ended and as surprising as it should, so I would say "never say never".

My issues have dogged me all my life as well, I had them pegged as "normal". I now know better.

cobalt,

In a weird way it is comforting to know you can share your common experience with others such as yourself, and at the same time, I feel frustrated, almost cursed at times. I imagine you do as well. Little by little mostly on my own I have found what I like to refer to as "little islands of relief", activities that for short periods (days to a week) erase all the worry, and ironically it involves dangerous activities such as riding motorcycle's on a track. Find whatever "islands of relief" that work for you, experiment with them. Sooner of later, you will find what truly makes you happy. Interacting with member's such as yourself on PF is obviously another one of those activities.

Rhody...

 

[wolram]

This is the first time I've heard your symptoms. As you might have seen me mention, I also have seizures. Do you know the exact type you have? Tonic-Clonic? Atonic? Complex-Partial? Simple-Partial?

Hearing voices as part of a seizure usually means it's a simple partial precurser to a complex-partial seizure (in other words, hearing voices is the "aura"). However, simple partials can, and often do, happen in isolation.

I take Depakote, which is alleged to cause weight gain. I don't find that to be directly true. It does make you feel a tad drowsy, which can lead to less activity. Therefore I make sure to walk a couple miles a day and try not to overeat.

So far the doctors have ruled out any type of epilepsy, they are more focused on momentary hypertension, (brain being starved of blood momentarily), i started having these falls in 2008 and still have no diagnosis, it just goes to show how medically advanced our doctors are.

 

[zoobyshoe]

So far the doctors have ruled out any type of epilepsy, they are more focused on momentary hypertension, (brain being starved of blood momentarily), i started having these falls in 2008 and still have no diagnosis, it just goes to show how medically advanced our doctors are.

Yes, I've run across that story over and over again: years without them figuring out the exact problem(s).

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

So far the doctors have ruled out any type of epilepsy, they are more focused on momentary hypertension, (brain being starved of blood momentarily), i started having these falls in 2008 and still have no diagnosis, it just goes to show how medically advanced our doctors are.

I wish you the best in tracking down the cause of your symptoms. If you mean to imply that doctors are not medically advanced, I disagree with you. However, it does show that they haven't advanced far enough in your case. My father was treated with lithium for bipolar disorder. The most difficult part was getting the dosage right. Apparently it is easy to get too much or too little.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Here's an article I found about what I mentioned earlier vis a vis co-morbidity with Asperger's:

The diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome (AS) do not include mood disorders such as anxiety, depression, or obsessive compulsive disorder. But many people with AS are overwhelmed by these mood disorders - even more than by the symptoms of AS itself.

If so many people with AS suffer with mood disorders, the big question is - why?

A reasonable explanation might be that the life experiences of people with AS lead to depression and anxiety. People with AS cope every day with sensory overloads, social rejection, teasing, bullying, and a whole host of other issues which are, by anyone's estimation, depressing and anxiety producing.

No Easy Answers

And indeed, Asperger experts Dr. Tony Attwood and Dr. Judy Reaven agree that Asperger syndrome can create a more stressful life, leading to mood disorders. But there's more to it.
According to Dr. Attwood, one of the world's experts on Asperger syndrome, perception and regulation of emotions really is a central element of AS. In addition, he says, "We now have neurophysiological evidence that the amygdala [a part of the brain] is different - and it's involved with regulation of emotions...[In Asperger syndrome] genetics and physiology come together; 2 of 3 teens with AS have a secondary mood disorder - anxiety, depression, and/or anger."

more:

http://autism.about.com/od/aspergerssyndrome/a/moodsasperger.htm

 

[rhody]

To all who may be interested,

I checked out Dr Tony Attwood, he wrote the forward to this http://books.google.com/books?hl=en...fzL8fDQ#v=onepage&q=Dr. Tony Attwood&f=false",
"Pretending to be Normal: Living with Asperberger's syndrome". by Liane Holliday Willey.
The first 29 pages can be accessed in the link provided.

Rhody...

 

[DoggerDan]

I said none, but what's the difference between OCD and attention to detail when not doing a job correctly can get you or someone else killed?

I like a clean kitchen, but I'm not about to break out the cleaner and a scrub brush every time I cook. A simple wipe-down will do.

 

[rhody]

I said none, but what's the difference between OCD and attention to detail when not doing a job correctly can get you or someone else killed?

I like a clean kitchen, but I'm not about to break out the cleaner and a scrub brush every time I cook. A simple wipe-down will do.

DoggerDan,

The best way I can describe rituals like cleaning is that you do it to the extreme, most times I do, like hardwood stairs, a three step process, no one does it like I do. There is a difference in an activity like that and say working in the milli-scary (pun intended) and being extremely focused in your job to prevent those in the field from getting killed. An OCD person in that situation would be ideal. Remember you have to have had this for a long time and the behavior patterns usually don't vary by much. Like I said awhile ago, I believe I have a mild case of it, that will intensify if I am under extreme stress. This has proven true for me time and again.

Another example would be when you are doing something you like you take it to the next level, what I like to call a "drill down mentality", here is a https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=422276&highlight=plasticity" I posted about awhile ago. I read the book I was interested in three or four times, each time paying more attention to concepts information I picked up on the previous read. For me at the time it seemed perfectly normal, but reflecting back on it I see how the subject of brain plasticity was becoming an obsession in itself and I backed off. Read a few of the posts and I am sure you will get a sense of what I mean. Don't get me wrong the subject is fascinating, but for most folks they are not partially consumed by it, as I was.

Does my explanation make sense to you ? Can you see how you don't have to totally fit the criteria of neurologists, psychologists in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV) to at least say that some of your thoughts and actions meet the criteria presented there for conditions such as OCD ?

Rhody...

 

[fluidistic]

I voted none.
Depression and anxiety might have been the one I could have voted if I had a different criteria. I never attempted suicide nor have unoverpassable anxiety trouble requiring the ingestion of pills.

 

[cobalt124]

I read the book I was interested in three or four times, each time paying more attention to concepts information I picked up on the previous read. For me at the time it seemed perfectly normal, but reflecting back on it I see how the subject of brain plasticity was becoming an obsession in itself and I backed off. Read a few of the posts and I am sure you will get a sense of what I mean.

I'm glad you had it in you to "step outside and back off" Rhody. From my reading of that thread your knowledge came across rather than any obsession. FWIW, I still have that thread bookmarked for future reference as the whole notion of neuroplasticity means basically that you can change, its not set in stone. That, and (for me) the notion of "mindfullness" and meditation, have made all the previous methods of treatment look like voodoo science (again, I'm sure that's just me).

I'm also going back to Fuzzyfelts "musical chills" thread, there's some great music on there for when I need a mood lift.

 

[Evo]

OCD severe enough for a diagnosis is not curable, it can change over the years, it can even go away for awhile, but it can always come back.

Some people mistake habits or peculiarties for OCD.

This is an online self test for OCD. I think the answers are too limited, and most of the test is about germ phobias and cleanliness.

If you want to take it for fun, they also have several other self tests.

http://www.brainphysics.com/screener.php

Also, OCD is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Here is a site that explains OCD well.

What is Obsessive-compulsive disorder?

Obsessions are intrusive, irrational thoughts -- unwanted ideas or impulses that repeatedly well up in a person's mind. Again and again, the person experiences disturbing thoughts, such as "My hands must be contaminated; I must wash them"; "I may have left the gas stove on"; "I am going to injure my child." On one level, the sufferer knows these obsessive thoughts are irrational. But on another level, he or she fears these thoughts might be true. Trying to avoid such thoughts creates great anxiety.

Compulsions are repetitive rituals such as handwashing, counting, checking, hoarding, or arranging. An individual repeats these actions, perhaps feeling momentary relief, but without feeling satisfaction or a sense of completion. People with OCD feel they must perform these compulsive rituals or something bad will happen.

Most people at one time or another experience obsessive thoughts or compulsive behaviors. Obsessive-compulsive disorder occurs when an individual experiences obsessions and compulsions for more than an hour each day, in a way that interferes with his or her life.

OCD is often described as "a disease of doubt." Sufferers experience "pathological doubt" because they are unable to distinguish between what is possible, what is probable, and what is unlikely to happen.

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=54&ContentID=23035

 

[micromass]

If you want to take it for fun, they also have several other self tests.

http://www.brainphysics.com/screener.php

I don't like that test. Most OCD test focus on the compulsions too much. But there are as many different compulsions as there are human beings. Far from every OCD-person is constanly busy with cleaning himself or counting objects.

Let me try to find a good test.

 

[Evo]

I don't like that test. Most OCD test focus on the compulsions too much. But there are as many different compulsions as there are human beings. Far from every OCD-person is constanly busy with cleaning himself or counting objects.

Let me try to find a good test.

I didn't like it either, none of the answers applied to me.

 

[micromass]

Here is what I thought was a good test: http://www.ocdvriendenkring.org/
click on OCD test. It's in dutch, so I translated it below:

1) Did you ever have unwanted, frightening thoughts which you were unable to control? For example: worries about hygene, bacterias or hurting somebody. Did these thoughts last more than an hour??

2) When you had these thoughts, did these surpass worries about troubles in your daily life?

3) Did you try to ignore or repress the thoughts?

4) Did you feel that the thoughts were the product of your own mind? (So not the product of brainwashing or hypnosis)

5) Did you ever had unwanted rituals that you were forced to do? Like: praying, counting, repeating words in silence, washing hands, checking, putting everything in the rgith place. Did these rituals last more than an hour?

6) Were you frightened that something bad could happen if you forgot about the rituals??

7) Did you find the rituals unreasonable of yourself?

8) Did the rituals disturb your functioning in your daily life?? Did you suffer under them??

9) Did they have to do with an addiction?? For example: thinking about alcohol in an alcohol addiction, thinking about drugs in a drugaddiciton, think about gambling in a gambling addiction??

10) When you had these rituals or thoughts, were you on medication or drugs?? And did your doctor say that they caused your thoughts or rituals??

11) Right before these thoughts or rituals started, did you have mental issues?? And did your doctor say that they caused your thoughts or rituals? Example: depression, psychosis, eating disorder, etc.

12) How are you doing the last month with the thoughts or rituals??
a) completely gone.
b) it's getting better fast
c) it's getting better slowly
d) thesame
e) worsening slowly
f) worsening fast

13) How heavy were the thoughts or rituals last month??
a) mild: the symptoms did not inhibit work or social contact
b) moderate: the symptoms did inhibit work or social contact
c) severe: I had no work or social contact because of the symptoms
d) extreme: my entire life is controlled by the symptoms

 

[Evo]

Here's a better one. I love question 10.

10. Have you worried about acting on an unwanted and senseless urge or impulse, such as physically harming a loved one, pushing a stranger in front of a bus, steering your car into oncoming traffic; inappropriate sexual contact; or poisoning dinner guests?

http://psychcentral.com/ocdquiz.htm

 

[micromass]

Here's a better one. I love question 10.



http://psychcentral.com/ocdquiz.htm

Evo, that's significant of pure obsessional OCD, exactly the type I have.
Here is a good test for that: http://www.ocdla.com/pure-obsessional-ocd-test.html

 

[Evo]

Evo, that's significant of pure obsessional OCD, exactly the type I have.
Here is a good test for that: http://www.ocdla.com/pure-obsessional-ocd-test.html

Aww {{{{hugs}}}} micro.

 

[micromass]

Here is a nice depression test: http://www.depressedtest.com/

 

[bohm2]

I'm officially diagnosed with GAD and performance anxiety. It was suspected that I might have Asperger's but I probably don't. I likely have just extreme introversion with some AS-type symptoms (sensory issues and intense obsessions). Some recent ideas on Asperger's/Autism including its relationship to introversion is the following:

Introversion and Autism: A conceptual exploration of the placement of introversion on the Autism Spectrum

http://etd.fcla.edu/CF/CFE0003090/Grimes_Jennifer_O_201005_MA.pdf

The Intense World Theory – a unifying theory of the neurobiology of autism

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3010743/pdf/fnhum-04-00224.pdf

 

[zoobyshoe]

Also, OCD is a chemical imbalance in the brain. Here is a site that explains OCD well

I'm seeing signs everywhere that the "neurotransmitter imbalance as cause" theory of mental illness is on the way out. There's increased thinking that it was a notion started and maintained by drug companies. Hypnagogue, in fact, started a thread about this a few years back.

Chemical imbalances are less seen to be the cause than they are seen as an effect.

People are returning to the notion that it's all the result of prolonged stress/trauma during development (all a form of PTSS or PTSD I would say).

I didn't realize how much this revised thinking had started to become taken seriously until I ran across it in this "popular" article:

http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/affective-disorders

Go to the section "Causes and Symptoms" on page 3

 

[Evo]

I'm seeing signs everywhere that the "neurotransmitter imbalance as cause" theory of mental illness is on the way out. There's increased thinking that it was a notion started and maintained by drug companies. Hypnagogue, in fact, started a thread about this a few years back.

Chemical imbalances are less seen to be the cause than they are seen as an effect.

People are returning to the notion that it's all the result of prolonged stress/trauma during development (all a form of PTSS or PTSD I would say).

I didn't realize how much this revised thinking had started to become taken seriously until I ran across it in this "popular" article:

http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/affective-disorders

Go to the section "Causes and Symptoms" on page 3

Your article clearly states it's chemical.

The neurochemical effects of stress alter both the quantities and the baseline systems of substances responsible for information processing between neurons such as neurotransmitters and hormones. Moreover, the stress metabolites such as glucocorticoids cause atrophy and death of neurons, a phenomenon known as neuronal crop, which alters the architecture of a child's brain. Neurotransmitters have specific roles in mood and in behavioral, cognitive, and other physiological functions: serotonin modulates mood, satiety (satisfaction in appetite), and sleeping patterns; dopamine modulates reward-seeking behavior, pleasure, and maternal/paternal and altruistic feelings; norepinephrine determines levels of alertness, danger perception, and fight-or-flight responses; acetylcholine controls memory and cognition processes; gamma amino butyric acid (GABA) modulates levels of reflex/stimuli response and controls or inhibits neuron excitation; and glutamate promotes excitation of neurons. Orchestrated interaction of proper levels of different neurotransmitters is essential for normal brain development and function, greatly influencing affective (mood), cognitive, and behavioral responses to the environment.

Low levels of the neurotransmitters serotonin and norepinephrine were found in people with affective disorders, and even lower levels of serotonin are associated with suicide and compulsive or aggressive behavior. Depressive states with mood swings and surges of irritability also point to serotonin depletion. Lower levels of dopamine are related to both depression and aggressive behavior. Norepinephrine synthesis depends on dopamine, and its depletion leads to loss of motivation and apathy. GABA is an important mood regulator because it controls and inhibits chemical changes in the brain during stress. Depletion of GABA leads to phobias, panic attacks, chronic anxiety pervaded with dark thoughts about the dangers of accidents, hidden menaces, and feelings of imminent death. Acute and prolonged stress, as well as alcohol and drug abuse, leads to GABA depletion. Acetylcholine depletion causes attention and concentration deficits, memory reduction, and learning disorders.

I don't see anything except reference to chemicals in the brain that are responsible, and it continues talking about chemicals in the brain throughout. What exactly are you seeing that says it's not chemicals in the brain?

I have diagnosed OCD, but it is the benign checking and repetition type. It started when I was 12, which a lot of studies I read said that the onset is usually at puberty, although most people may not realize it until years later if it started out mildly. I remember the day it started, I was standing in front of my dresser mirror in my bedroom.

I had a blissfully happy, uneventful childhood. I've also had a brain MRI and it came back perfectly normal.

That article also tends to lump epileptic seizures and brain damage in along with OCD, which has nothing to do with either.

Why do people get OCD?

OCD sometimes runs in families, but no one knows for sure why some people have it, while others don’t. When chemicals in the brain are not at a certain level it may result in OCD. Medications can often help the brain chemicals stay at the correct levels.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS339US339&hl=en&q=cache:nhQi0naCafoJ:http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/when-unwanted-thoughts-take-over-obsessive-compulsive-disorder/index.shtml+ocd+caused+by+chemicals+NIMH&ct=clnk

From JAMA

CAUSES OF OCD

The exact cause of OCD is not known.

There is evidence that OCD can run in families and may have a genetic (inherited) component.

An imbalance of serotonin, a chemical messenger in the brain, may be involved.

TREATMENTS FOR OCD

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) are medications that have been shown to successfully reduce the symptoms of OCD and that are also used as antidepressants.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/305/18/1926.full

On the other hand, I personally have found no medication that has had any effect on my OCD. Zoloft did turn me into an emotional zombie, I asked to be taken off of it because as I told my doctor nothing mattered to me anymore

A: the house is on fire!
Me: that's nice

A: the dog is on fire!
Me: that's nice

But I do know people that have responded to medications.

 

[micromass]

I don't think anybody could seriously argue that OCD is not a biological disorder. There is enough evidence for this:

1) Twin studies: identical twins have more chance on developping OCD
2) OCD can be identified on brain scans and on scans of brain activity
3) People who suffered head trauma can spontaneously develop OCD (Howard Hughes is an example that comes to mind)
4) There is a connection between streptococcus infections and OCD

I had a perfect(!) childhood. There are no trauma's at all with me. Still I developed OCD.

Also: here is a superb site which I've found, http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Obsessive-compulsive-disorder.html

 

[micromass]

Here are brains scans which scan activity level in a person with OCD:

The top row is in the full OCD-period. The bottom row is when the symptoms are lessened.

 

[Evo]

Here are brains scans which scan activity level in a person with OCD:

The top row is in the full OCD-period. The bottom row is when the symptoms are lessened.

Scans for brain activity can show OCD, I had an MRI which ruled out physical brain damage or lesions or anomalies, so my OCD is caused by none of those things.

 

[micromass]

Scans for brain activity can show OCD, I had an MRI which ruled out physical brain damage or lesions or anomalies, so my OCD is caused by none of those things.

Did you have a PET-scan?? They supposedly show that OCD'ers have a different brain activity than other people. I want to get one, but I'm too poor

 

[zoobyshoe]

Your article clearly states it's chemical.

I don't see anything except reference to chemicals in the brain that are responsible, and it continues talking about chemicals in the brain throughout. What exactly are you seeing that says it's not chemicals in the brain?

Where did I say they're saying it's not chemicals in the brain? The statement I made was
"Chemical imbalances are less seen to be the cause than they are seen as an effect." That comes out clearly in these sections:

Children with one parent affected by MDD or bipolar disease are five to seven times more prone to develop some affective or other psychiatric disorder than the general population. Although an inherited genetic trait is also under suspicion, studies over the past 20 years, as well as ongoing research on brain development during childhood, suggest that many cases of affective disorder may be due to the impact of repetitive and prolonged exposure to stress on the developing brain. Children of bipolar or MDD parents, for instance, may experience neglect or abuse, or be required to cope in early childhood with the emotional outbursts and incoherent mood swings of adults. Many children of those with affective disorders feel guilty or responsible for the dysfunctional adult. Such early exposure to stress generates abnormal levels of toxic metabolites in the brain, which have been shown to be harmful to the neurochemistry of the developing brain during childhood.

The neurochemical effects of stress alter both the quantities and the baseline systems of substances responsible for information processing between neurons such as neurotransmitters and hormones. Moreover, the stress metabolites such as glucocorticoids cause atrophy and death of neurons, a phenomenon known as neuronal crop, which alters the architecture of a child's brain. Neurotransmitters have specific roles in mood and in behavioral, cognitive, and other physiological functions: serotonin modulates mood, satiety (satisfaction in appetite), and sleeping patterns; dopamine modulates reward-seeking behavior, pleasure, and maternal/paternal and altruistic feelings; norepinephrine determines levels of alertness, danger perception, and fight-or-flight responses; acetylcholine controls memory and cognition processes; gamma amino butyric acid (GABA) modulates levels of reflex/stimuli response and controls or inhibits neuron excitation; and glutamate promotes excitation of neurons. Orchestrated interaction of proper levels of different neurotransmitters is essential for normal brain development and function, greatly influencing affective (mood), cognitive, and behavioral responses to the environment.

and:

Chronic stress or highly traumatic experiences cause adaptive or compensatory changes in brain neurochemistry and physiology, in order to provide the individual with defense and survival mechanisms. However, such adaptive changes come with a high cost, in particular when they are required for an extended period such as in war zones, or other prolonged stressful situations. The adaptive chemicals tend to outlast the situation for which they were required, leading to some form of affective and behavioral disorder.

These adaptive neurochemical changes are especially harmful during early childhood. For instance, neglected or physically, sexually, or emotionally abused children are exposed to harmful levels of glucocorticoids (comparable to those found in war veterans) that lead to neuron atrophy (wasting) and cropping (reduced numbers) in the hippocampus region of the brain. Neuronal atrophy and crop often cause cognitive and memory disorders, anxiety, and poor emotional control. Neuronal crop also occurs in the frontal cortex of the brain's left hemisphere, leading to fewer nerve-cell connections with several other brain areas. These decreased nerve-cell connections favor epilepsy-like short circuits or microseizures in the brain that occur in association with bursts of aggressiveness, self-destructive behavior, and cognitive or attention disorders. These alterations are also seen in the brains of adults who were abused or neglected during childhood. Time and recurrence of exposure and severity of suffered abuse help determine the extension of brain damage and the severity of psychiatric-related disorders in later stages of life.

The point of my post was to alert you (and anyone reading) that there's a shift in thinking underway. I think you're going to be seeing more of this: 'stress/trauma precedes and causes the chemical imbalances'.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't think anybody could seriously argue that OCD is not a biological disorder. There is enough evidence for this:

1) Twin studies: identical twins have more chance on developping OCD
2) OCD can be identified on brain scans and on scans of brain activity
3) People who suffered head trauma can spontaneously develop OCD (Howard Hughes is an example that comes to mind)
4) There is a connection between streptococcus infections and OCD

I had a perfect(!) childhood. There are no trauma's at all with me. Still I developed OCD.

Also: here is a superb site which I've found, http://www.minddisorders.com/Ob-Ps/Obsessive-compulsive-disorder.html

I don't see how anyone could argue that Asperger's/Autism is not a biological disorder, either. I've objected to it's inclusion in the DSM since I first discovered it there.

I know very little about OCD and don't have any opinions about it, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out it doesn't belong in the DSM either.

 

[micromass]

I don't see how anyone could argue that Asperger's/Autism is not a biological disorder, either. I've objected to it's inclusion in the DSM since I first discovered it there.

I know very little about OCD and don't have any opinions about it, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out it doesn't belong in the DSM either.

Why shouldn't Aspergers and OCD belong in the DSM?? The DSM is simply a list of mental disorders and criteria for it. I don't see a reason why biological disorders shouldn't belong in the DSM.

 

[Pythagorean]

Why shouldn't Aspergers and OCD belong in the DSM?? The DSM is simply a list of mental disorders and criteria for it. I don't see a reason why biological disorders shouldn't belong in the DSM.

Well, DSM criteria are based on behavioral observations. Any number of biological mechanisms could potentially lead to the same emergent observed behavior.

Biological disorders are based on physiological or molecular observations. Of course, physiological recordings are likewise degenerate (several different molecular mechanisms can lead to the same physiological recording) so there's still some human abstraction going on, but once we get down to the molecular biology, we begin to feel more confident that we've eliminated degenerate behavior.

I think the point is that instead of psychiatrists misdiagnosing based on qualitative DSM criteria, we should actually quantify; look at the neurology and make physiologically meaningful definitions before ascribing physiologically affective drugs =)