Does a particle really try every possible path?

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  • #101
An electron is a quanta meaning it can behave like a wave or particle, this was first observed in the micro-slit experiment, search it, it is really interesting. Basically, if you have a point A and point B, the electron would theoretically takes every possible path from point A to point B.
 
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  • #102
As stressed before, an electron is one quantum (formally it's a one-particle Fock state). This means it's neither a classical particle nor a classical wave but can only described by quantum theory. There's no simpler way to describe it that is entirely correct. The wave-like and particle-like properties are only consistently described by quantum theory, and you cannot describe it in some simpler way.

You cannot say, the electron takes a certain way or that it takes every possible path at once. What you calculate with the Schrödinger equation or, equivalently, with the path integral is a socalled propagator, which is a mathematical description how the state (a highly abstract mathematical object) evolves in time, given the state at some initial time and the interactions (forces) of the particle with the experimental setup (in this case with the double slits). The result is a probability distribution that the electron makes a mark on the detection screen. You an make this probability distribution visible by performing the experiment very often with the same initial state of each electron and the same experimental setup. All we can say is that up to know the predictions of quantum theory are confirmed by the so made observations. You cannot expect more from the natural sciences than such a successful description of objectively observable facts about (certain aspects of) nature. Particularly, it never answers and also never aims to answer the question, "what's really going on". The reason is, that you cannot even precisely define, what you mean by this question. It's highly subjective, depending on your personal experience in life. It takes time to get used to the very unfamiliar way of thinking when it comes to the realm of nature requiring quantum theory to describe it. The intuition is due to quite abstract ideas, and you can only grasp its meaning by looking at it in different applications to get a kind of intuition for these highly abstract ideas.
 
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  • #103
vanhees71 said:
As stressed before, an electron is one quantum (formally it's a one-particle Fock state). This means it's neither a classical particle nor a classical wave but can only described by quantum theory. There's no simpler way to describe it that is entirely correct. The wave-like and particle-like properties are only consistently described by quantum theory, and you cannot describe it in some simpler way.

You cannot say, the electron takes a certain way or that it takes every possible path at once. What you calculate with the Schrödinger equation or, equivalently, with the path integral is a socalled propagator, which is a mathematical description how the state (a highly abstract mathematical object) evolves in time, given the state at some initial time and the interactions (forces) of the particle with the experimental setup (in this case with the double slits). The result is a probability distribution that the electron makes a mark on the detection screen. You an make this probability distribution visible by performing the experiment very often with the same initial state of each electron and the same experimental setup. All we can say is that up to know the predictions of quantum theory are confirmed by the so made observations. You cannot expect more from the natural sciences than such a successful description of objectively observable facts about (certain aspects of) nature. Particularly, it never answers and also never aims to answer the question, "what's really going on". The reason is, that you cannot even precisely define, what you mean by this question. It's highly subjective, depending on your personal experience in life. It takes time to get used to the very unfamiliar way of thinking when it comes to the realm of nature requiring quantum theory to describe it. The intuition is due to quite abstract ideas, and you can only grasp its meaning by looking at it in different applications to get a kind of intuition for these highly abstract ideas.
Excellent!
 
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  • #104
brianhurren said:
can the double slit be thought of as a 'phase filter'. the distance between the slits determans what phases it will filter?

Thinking back to when I was into electronics I would say no.

I have noticed a pattern in your posts - trying to reduce things like the double slit to something else. It can't be done - QM is QM - its analogous to just one thing - QM. The wave particle duality is an attempt at such an analogy left over from the early days of QM - but it's wrong. In popularisations and beginning texts so students can get an initial grasp they do such things, but as you advance they are abandoned. Personally I am not a fan of that method - I would prefer facing it head on from the start as an extension of probability:
http://www.scottaaronson.com/democritus/lec9.html

But I must emphasise my background is applied math and that's how someone like me imbued with the spirit of mathematical modelling would approach it. Those into physics normally take the route of building intuition by a semi-historical approach.

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #105
Joel A. Levitt said:
Excellent!

As usual.

I have learned so much from reading Vanhees posts.

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #106
phinds said:
Yeah, I think that way too. My logic is that if you move the wall a bit closer, you still get an interaction. Move it a bit closer and you still get an interaction. And so forth. So clearly it's THERE in some sense.

The mistake would be to connect the dots between all those interactions and think that you have found even one path that the particle took on the way to the wall when it was farthest away. There's no path, there's nothing until you get an interaction, but I'm agreeing w/ you that it is in some sense there even if that is undefined and not useful in practice.
From a non-physicists (but interested layman) point of view. It appears from this and other threads that it serves little purpose in using common language to describe QM. It appears to be only describable using mathematics. Our language serves only to misdirect or mislead when attempting to explain how particles/waves move or what their state is when they are not moving. Using language that describes states or motions we understand in our macro universe, we appear not be able to describe the state or motion of Q particles/waves. As a previous message says, concerning the journey between outset and arrival of a particle or wave, the theory is 'silent' about it. If there is no theory concerning the route taken from A to B, and no evidence to show which path is taken (does it take one of an infinite number, does it take all possible paths), then what evidence exists to show that a wave or particle arriving at a detector is the same wave or particle that left the source? If a wave or particle does not indeed travel (in the conventional sense) between two points in space, then the source and detector have a messenger between them, and so the discussion then moves to how the messenger communicates or travels. The difficulty is how do mathematicians translate their language into meaningful and unambiguous spoken language.

AD2004
 
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