Does ionization affect the volume of hydrogen gas at STP?

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  • Thread starter Thread starter Misha Kuznetsov
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the effects of ionization on the volume and pressure of hydrogen gas at standard temperature and pressure (STP). Participants explore whether ionizing hydrogen gas and removing its electrons would result in a change in volume or pressure compared to the original gas.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant, Misha, questions whether the volume of protons remaining after ionization would exceed 22.4 L, considering both the reduction in volume from electron removal and the repulsive forces between protons.
  • Another participant suggests that ionized hydrogen cannot be treated as a perfect gas, implying that the pressure in a container filled with protons would be lower than that of hydrogen gas.
  • A subsequent participant challenges the idea that a container filled with protons would have lower pressure, arguing that the repulsive Coulomb forces would likely lead to a higher pressure scenario.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the implications of atomic structure, noting that the majority of an atom is empty space and questioning how this might affect volume.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between ionization, volume, and pressure. There is no consensus on whether the pressure in a container filled with protons would be lower or higher than that of hydrogen gas.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the effects of Coulomb forces and atomic structure, but the discussion does not resolve the implications of these factors on volume and pressure. Assumptions about the behavior of ionized gases remain unexamined.

Misha Kuznetsov
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At STP, a mole of hydrogen gas would take up 22.4 L. If that hydrogen gas was ionized and stripped of 100% of the electrons, would the remaining protons have a larger volume than 22.4 L? I'm not sure because on one hand, taking away the electrons leaves each proton with much less volume, but on the other hand, protons repel from one another.

So in essence, would the pressure be higher in a 22.4 L container full of hydrogen gas or the corresponding number of protons?

- Misha
 
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Misha Kuznetsov said:
At STP, a mole of hydrogen gas would take up 22.4 L. If that hydrogen gas was ionized and stripped of 100% of the electrons, would the remaining protons have a larger volume than 22.4 L? I'm not sure because on one hand, taking away the electrons leaves each proton with much less volume, but on the other hand, protons repel from one another.

So in essence, would the pressure be higher in a 22.4 L container full of hydrogen gas or the corresponding number of protons?

- Misha
The quick answer is no. I don't think a bunch of ionized hydrogen atoms can reasonably approximate a perfect gas.
 
OK, so the pressure in a 22.4 L container would be less if it was filled with protons than if it was filled with a mole of hydrogen gas?
 
Misha Kuznetsov said:
OK, so the pressure in a 22.4 L container would be less if it was filled with protons than if it was filled with a mole of hydrogen gas?

Do you really think that a container filled with a bunch of positively charged ions is going to have lower pressure? This thing would probably blow up like a bomb, assuming you could corral the ions in the first place.

Don't discount the effect of Coulomb forces when talking about matter which is ionized.
 
Alright, I just wasn't sure how it would work. Since 99.999% of an atom is empty space, I thought that maybe this would cause it to take up less volume.

But thank you for answering.
 

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