Does the Electron's Magnetic Field Possess Higher-Order Poles?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of the magnetic field produced by a single electron, specifically whether it behaves as an ideal dipole or possesses higher-order poles. The scope includes theoretical considerations and speculative models related to quantum mechanics and magnetic fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if the magnetic field of a single electron is merely an ideal dipole or if it includes higher-order poles.
  • Another participant proposes a hypothetical scenario where an electron possesses an additional degree of freedom akin to a "quadrupole spin," suggesting that this could lead to a quadrupole moment alongside the dipole moment, affecting energy levels in quantum mechanics.
  • A different participant inquires about calculating the magnetic field of a permanent magnet by summing small dipoles, suggesting that this could be a valid approximation under certain conditions.
  • In response, another participant acknowledges the validity of the approximation for certain magnets but points out that real magnets exhibit behaviors that contradict this simplification, such as the interaction between two bar magnets that induce quadrupole moments.
  • This participant further explains that the behavior of real magnets can be understood by considering the composition of the material as made up of various regions with nonparallel dipole fields.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the electron's magnetic field and the behavior of permanent magnets, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without a consensus.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes speculative ideas about additional degrees of freedom for electrons and the limitations of approximating permanent magnets as collections of dipoles, highlighting unresolved assumptions and the complexity of real magnetic behavior.

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Is the magnetic field produced by a single electron an ideal dipole, or does it posses higher-order poles?
 
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Throughout quantum mechanics we assume that besides position and momentum, the only other degree of freedom an electron has is its spin--which as you said generates a magnetic dipole field. It possesses no "quadrupole spin" or higher-order degree of freedom.

Let's imagine the electron did have an additional degree of freedom akin to a spin, take the most basic case of a "quadrupole spin" of 1/2, such that it can have a quadrupole moment of "up" or "down" in addition to a dipole moment of "up" or "down." For shorthand let's write "up" and "down" as + and -. (Also assume that this particle is still a fermion--this is actually a nontrivial assumption.) Therefore the electron with normal spin 1/2 and "quadrupole spin" 1/2 would have one of the following spin states: |++>, |+->, |-+>, or |-->. If this were the case, then a hamiltonian that doesn't depend on the magnetic dipole or quadrupole moments would have quadruply degenerate energy levels rather than the usual double. For example, instead of a single S orbital permitting two electrons, it would permit four electrons when we include the quadrupole-1/2 degree of freedom, one each corresponding to |++>, |+->, |-+>, and |-->.
 
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I see, thanks. So can you calculate the magnetic field of a permanent magnet by just summing up little dipoles and integrating over the volume of the magnet? (with the idealization that on average all the dipoles are aligned in the same direction)
 
Well, if you buy into the approximation that the permanent magnet is basically composed of a bunch of little parallel dipoles, then yes you could do that. Magnetic fields do obey the superposition principle. I'd guess that's a decent approximation for certain kinds of magnets. However, most real magnets behave in ways that would contradict that view. For example, take two ordinary bar magnets and position them side-to-side like this
|N| |N|
|S| |S|
(Unlike most of the things I talk about on PF, this is actually something you can do and you can't really figure out the real answer in your head). You'll notice that once you push them close enough together, the magnets snap together! This is because they induce quadrupole moments on one another--something that you wouldn't find by superposing a bunch of parallel dipole fields. Also, this would contradict the normal view of a magnet as a solenoid, since oppositely flowing currents repel one another.

One way to understand that experiment is by thinking of the iron (or neodymium, etc.) as composed of many different size regions (grains) each with different nonparallel dipole fields, which can reorient themselves under the influence of an outside magnetic field.
 
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