Does the US administration owe an apology to the French ?

[Smurf]

This is a common practice...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(oil_production)

And therefore It has nothing to do with any point he is trying to make...

Yeah. From your link:

The seawater is pressurised and passed through filters to the de-oxygenation tower.

Wasn't TSM's argument that they didn't clean it first, thus reducing it's value? (see post above for disclaimer)

P.S. Wiki is your friend.

 

[Townsend]

Yeah. From your link:
Wasn't TSM's argument that they didn't clean it first, thus reducing it's value? (see post above for disclaimer)

P.S. Wiki is your friend.

That is not what he said...he said sea water the first time. I asked him my question and his response was to point out the following:

Iraqi oil-field workers, for example, used a common technique of injecting water into underground structures containing crude. This normally makes it flow better. The problem is, instead of using filtered water, they took water straight out of the Euphrates River, and clay in the water has gummed up the works in the wells. Beyond that, much of the equipment has been poorly maintained.

The problem with this is it does not answer my question in any way shape or form but in fact raises even more questions.

1. So far as I can tell this article is describing what Iraqi oil field workers have done to screw things up in the wells. What does that have to do with American oil field workers pumping sea water into the wells? And who says that the sea water that Americans are pumping into the wells is not being filtered?

2. Even if that article was addressing the point, which it is not, it still taking about pumping water from Euphrates river, not sea water from the ocean. Those are two very different things.

3. Isn't that article talking about what happened, not what is happening? Isn't TSM's point about what is happening?

4. Why won't anyone take the time to read my questions and responses I get from them? Everyone will take sides against me but so far it seems no one is really looking at anything from my point of view...

P.S. your disclaimer is not a get out of jail free card, Smurf.. :grumpy:

 

[Smurf]

P.S. your disclaimer is not a get out of jail free card, Smurf.. :grumpy:

Whaa.. Don't hate me because I'm ignorant

 

[Townsend]

Whaa.. Don't hate me because I'm ignorant

I don't hate you... Why would you think I would hate anyone? I even like TSM. Doesn't mean I have to let anyone out of jail for free... :tongue2:

 

[The Smoking Man]

Yeah. From your link:
Wasn't TSM's argument that they didn't clean it first, thus reducing it's value? (see post above for disclaimer)

P.S. Wiki is your friend.

The problem is in the silt from the water.

In normal extraction using water ... well we all know that oil and water don't mix so the oil floats off and extraction is simplified.

When the silts are not removed, they contaminate the crude that eventually clog the refineries by simply caking the inner mechanisms with clay.

Since 'refining' is a distillation process the concentration of silts and in this case, they were clay which is notoriously sticky, they will actually shut down a refinery.

In Northern Canada, in the Athabasca oil sands, they had to develop a technology to remove the oil from the sand. This is fairly simple since the adherant qualities of sand differ vastly from the properties of clay.

No doubt is was a person with as much knowledge of the process as Townsend who made the decision to pump unfiltered water into the wells.

Then there is the problem of 'watering out'. You can only pump so much water into the wells before they become unusable.

10th of March 2000 http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/oip/s-2000-208.htm:

Production

25. In order to maximize revenue, and in expectation of the arrival of spare parts and equipment in 1998 and thereafter, the production of crude oil was incrementally increased by the Government of Iraq to a level of 3 million barrels per day by November 1999, without the technical resources to apply "good oilfield practice". This was achieved by implementing poorly controlled water-injection programmes in the north and south, bringing on-stream some of the pre?1991 stock of pre?drilled wells and initiating production from fields such as Saddam and West Qurna.

26. The Iraqi oil industry is unable to sustain production at these levels because of its inability to replace the lost capacity of depleted strata and "watered-out" wells. The suspension of drilling, well work-over and completion activities and delays in the commissioning of wet-crude treatment plants result directly from a lack of spare parts and equipment.

27. Without prompt action, a continued decline in production is strongly indicated. The Iraqi oil industry continues to adopt high-risk solutions in order to balance the production quantity/oil price equation against the necessity to export crude oil, to produce gas for domestic use and to refine products for transportation and power generation.

It was not known at this time that unfiltered water was being used.

http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19990712/fec12006.html

Monday, July 12, 1999

Iraq needs to import more oil industry gear
REUTERS
United Nations: In an effort to squeeze more oil from its wells, Iraq is using techniques that could damage pipeline systems and eventually reduce production unless it can import far more oil industry equipment, according to a new UN report.

A ``water injection'' programme, which was assisted by treatment chemicals, increased production in Iraq's southern oil fields by 160,0000 barrels per day between August 1998 and May 1999, the Dutch Saybolt firm, which monitors Iraqi oil flows for the United Nations, said in a report on Thursday.This technique ``produces a short-term jump in the rate of production of oil but a long-term deterioration in the total volume recovered,'' the report said.

A total of 54 wells have ``watered-out'' in the south since mid-1998 and were unlikely to be revived, it added.

So in one year, Saddam made 54 wells completely unusable by this method.

When the US entered and looked at the quality of the crude from the remaining wells, it was found to be so contaminated with clays and silt as to reduce the value of the product to 20% since the additional effort to purify it and refine the product results in greater expenditures AND the level of contaminants being so great as to result in less 'oil product' per barrel as opposed to 'impurities' per barrel.

Do you get it yet Townsend?

If you fill a barrel 1/3 full of clay, do you think you get the same money for it if you fill it with only oil?

Now add to the fact that the oil and clay have the same SG and are mixed and you simply don't pour off what floats on top, you have to physically separate the two. Do you think that this is done with standard equipment?

Now that I have held your hand through this process, have you figured it out yet?

The cost of refining the crude from the wells that are still functional are enormous due to the contamination reducing its value to 20% of a normal barrel.

 

[The Smoking Man]

That is not what he said...he said sea water the first time. I asked him my question and his response was to point out the following:


The problem with this is it does not answer my question in any way shape or form but in fact raises even more questions.

1. So far as I can tell this article is describing what Iraqi oil field workers have done to screw things up in the wells. What does that have to do with American oil field workers pumping sea water into the wells? And who says that the sea water that Americans are pumping into the wells is not being filtered?

Huh? Here's what I said: It is the USA who are digging the hole for themselves. Especially when they tested the wells and found that due to the abuses of the 'oil for food' system which allowed little for well maintenance had been reduced to a 20% efficiency with only a possibility of recovery to a maximum of 80%.

2. Even if that article was addressing the point, which it is not, it still taking about pumping water from Euphrates river, not sea water from the ocean. Those are two very different things.

Yeah ... sure they do Townsend, they pump Euphrades river water AAAAALLL the way from the north to their wells in the South. Actually, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt since river water is more highly contaminated than ocean water with clay. Check any satelite photo you want regarding silt deposits at the mouth of rivers.

3. Isn't that article talking about what happened, not what is happening? Isn't TSM's point about what is happening?

I say again ... Here's what I said: It is the USA who are digging the hole for themselves. Especially when they tested the wells and found that due to the abuses of the 'oil for food' system which allowed little for well maintenance had been reduced to a 20% efficiency with only a possibility of recovery to a maximum of 80%.

4. Why won't anyone take the time to read my questions and responses I get from them? Everyone will take sides against me but so far it seems no one is really looking at anything from my point of view...

Because you have just made a mockery of your own observation. You have just stated that your whole argument has been based on the fact that I stated what the USA was doing.

In other words, it is YOU who fails to read other people's posts, goes off half cocked and making wild accusations that we 'don't read what you write'. Well we do read it and find that relative to what WAS SAID, your replies are based on false understandings later backed up with partial data from Wikipedia.

 

[NewScientist]

Guys chill out!

 

[Townsend]

Huh? Here's what I said: It is the USA who are digging the hole for themselves. Especially when they tested the wells and found that due to the abuses of the 'oil for food' system which allowed little for well maintenance had been reduced to a 20% efficiency with only a possibility of recovery to a maximum of 80%.

can you read? Seriously? I didn't ask you about that stuff and does nothing to even address the question. I ask you one thing and you run off talking about something completely different...what is wrong with you? Do you take meds?

Yeah ... sure they do Townsend, they pump Euphrades river water AAAAALLL the way from the north to their wells in the South. Actually, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt since river water is more highly contaminated than ocean water with clay. Check any satelite photo you want regarding silt deposits at the mouth of rivers.

What? What source did you give that said that? What you gave me as an answer was a information about what Iraqi oil field workers had done. You said Americans were pumping sea water into the wells...how are they related?

I say again ... Here's what I said: It is the USA who are digging the hole for themselves. Especially when they tested the wells and found that due to the abuses of the 'oil for food' system which allowed little for well maintenance had been reduced to a 20% efficiency with only a possibility of recovery to a maximum of 80%.

I don't care about that, what I care about and what you have yet to bother addressing is what you meant by talking about sea water being pumped into the wells. Why don't you quote this in your answer so everyone can see what the question is that you are being asked?

Because you have just made a mockery of your own observation. You have just stated that your whole argument has been based on the fact that I stated what the USA was doing.

You are a joking right? I cannot believe anyone who can use a computer could be so obtuse but here you are.

In other words, it is YOU who fails to read other people's posts, goes off half cocked and making wild accusations that we 'don't read what you write'. Well we do read it and find that relative to what WAS SAID, your replies are based on false understandings later backed up with partial data from Wikipedia.

I am right on the money...you are the broken record in capable of original thought and incapable of forming a coherent idea...

Why don't you try actually addressing the question I asked you?

 

[The Smoking Man]

can you read? Seriously? I didn't ask you about that stuff and does nothing to even address the question. I ask you one thing and you run off talking about something completely different...what is wrong with you? Do you take meds?


What? What source did you give that said that? What you gave me as an answer was a information about what Iraqi oil field workers had done. You said Americans were pumping sea water into the wells...how are they related?



I don't care about that, what I care about and what you have yet to bother addressing is what you meant by talking about sea water being pumped into the wells. Why don't you quote this in your answer so everyone can see what the question is that you are being asked?


You are a joking right? I cannot believe anyone who can use a computer could be so obtuse but here you are.



I am right on the money...you are the broken record in capable of original thought and incapable of forming a coherent idea...

Why don't you try actually addressing the question I asked you?

If you say so Townsend.

I bow to your logic.

Continue.

 

[Townsend]

If you say so Townsend.

I bow to your logic.

Continue.

Good, cause you need to. You post are completely irrational...

 

[The Smoking Man]

Good, cause you need to. You post are completely irrational...

If you say so Townsend.

I bow to your logic.

Continue.

 

[Smurf]

No.. no... you've lost me again.

 

[edward]

It all depends on what the definition of is is. :tongue2:

One of the first efforts of the U.S. Army corp of Engineers was to build a water treatment plant. Not a plant to provide drinking water, but a plant to clean up river water so that it could be injected into oil wells.

We spent about $225 million dollars which includes the power to do the water injection work, and there is talk about spending more money because the water injection is Iraq ’s first priority,” said Meekins.


Designed to process raw river water from a tributary of the Euphrates River , Qarmat Ali plant works as follows.

Treating the water first removes small solids from the river that could plug the reservoir pores if it builds up. Water treatment also controls the acidity level and stymies bacterial growth. Left untreated, the reservoir could clog, not only reducing the oil flow, but requiring well repairs, re-perforating the well or, at worst having to redrill the well, according to a report done by Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR), which began construction on the treatment plant in March 2003 at the direction of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

http://www.grd.usace.army.mil/news/releases/recon112404.html

There were no water treatment plants for doing this under Saddam , otherwise we would have found them and used them. Hence Iraq must have been injecting silt laden water into the wells. Salt water is only available in the extreme south eastern oil fields of Iraq, hence unfiltered river water was used.
Is this really so difficult to understand? Or is someone just trying to pull someone else's strings, in an attempt to show his self perceived superiority?

Regardless, the French, Germans, and Russians still got screwed out of their oil agreements with Iraq. Now, however, we want them to come on down and help clean up the mess we have made.

 

[Townsend]

Is this really so difficult to understand?

That is what I have been saying...and hence why I questioned the reason why TSM needed to say that the US is pumping salt water into the well to pressurize them. I don't understand what his point of saying that was and I cannot get an answer out of him for the life of me.

 

[edward]

That is what I have been saying...and hence why I questioned the reason why TSM needed to say that the US is pumping salt water into the well to pressurize them. I don't understand what his point of saying that was and I cannot get an answer out of him for the life of me.

Salt water is preferred because it has a higher specific gravity and sinks to the bottom. salt water is being used by the U.S. in southern Iraq.

He didn't contradict himself by switching from salt to river water. His point was water injection in general. I understood his point perfectly.

 

[Smurf]

He didn't contradict himself by switching from salt to river water. His point was water injection in general. I understood his point perfectly.

Heh.. you're the only one.

 

[Townsend]

Salt water is preferred because it has a higher specific gravity and sinks to the bottom. salt water is being used by the U.S. in southern Iraq.

He didn't contradict himself by switching from salt to river water. His point was water injection in general. I understood his point perfectly.

What was it then?

 

[edward]

What was it then?

Basicaly that the U.S. is having to revive some of Iraq's neglected wells by putting a lot of time money and water into them. Whereas we had expected to go into Iraq and just start pumping out that liquid gold for free.

 

[Townsend]

Basicaly that the U.S. is having to revive some of Iraq's neglected wells by putting a lot of time money and water into them. Whereas we had expected to go into Iraq and just start pumping out that liquid gold for free.

I can see that...

I just don't know why couldn't I just get such a simple straight forward answer from TSM?

 

[The Smoking Man]

I can see that...

I just don't know why couldn't I just get such a simple straight forward answer from TSM?

I did, you dick.

If you go back to the quote of what it is I said that I keep posting and re-posting for you: It is the USA who are digging the hole for themselves. Especially when they tested the wells and found that due to the abuses of the 'oil for food' system which allowed little for well maintenance had been reduced to a 20% efficiency with only a possibility of recovery to a maximum of 80%.

You'll find that I have been trying to explain to you from the beginning that it was Saddam that pumped crap into the wells. Every quote I have given you is pre war dealing with 1997/1998.

You keep on bringing up what America has done since like some broken record and insinuation that I said something about this. Now Edward is telling you what the US is having do to bring systems on-line... So that they have a method of BILLING Iraq for a portion of 'OIF'.

At the war's end, Iraq was still incapable of sustaining itself even WITH all the oil in the ground because of what had been done to it and the lack of maintenance upgrades.

You simply DON'T read what is written.

And as far as you're, 'You're the only one' crack ... so far Smurf and Edward have come out and tried to explain it to you and indeed ... of the 4 of us, you're the only one to demonstrate an ignorance of the technology or the English used to explain it to you.

 

[vanesch]

Basicaly that the U.S. is having to revive some of Iraq's neglected wells by putting a lot of time money and water into them. Whereas we had expected to go into Iraq and just start pumping out that liquid gold for free.

Yup, so they broke into what they thought was Ali Baba's Cave, and found a pile of rubbish.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Yup, so they broke into what they thought was Ali Baba's Cave, and found a pile of rubbish.

Sorta like Geraldo and Al Capone's Hotel.

And to think ... they sent Geraldo home early frim Iraq.

 

[kat]

Originally Posted by edward
Basicaly that the U.S. is having to revive some of Iraq's neglected wells by putting a lot of time money and water into them. Whereas we had expected to go into Iraq and just start pumping out that liquid gold for free.

Oookay, great supposition but where's your evidence?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Oookay, great supposition but where's your evidence?

That would be post 153 when he quoted the military source.

 

[outsider]

Oookay, great supposition but where's your evidence?

again, with the one liner that says nothing...

kat, do you believe that ojay simpson is innocent? If you say, yes... there you go... :rofl:

 

[cronxeh]

The French invented terrorism, back in 1790's during French revolution, and now they are all of a sudden 'against the war'. Not to mention that French are only 60million in population - a piss ant colony on global scale of anyone important

They can just as well shut the hell up

 

[NewScientist]

The french didn't invent terrorism - the word comes from an Arabic word and the 'first' terrorists were in about the 12th century and it was where an Islamic teacher instructed men to kill other men with the belief that they would go to heaven and have 7 pure blood virgins.

That may not be 100% accurtate but its far clsoer than claiming some oppressed, starving masses of 1790 were the 1st terrorists.

NS

 

[Smurf]

The French invented terrorism, back in 1790's during French revolution, and now they are all of a sudden 'against the war'. Not to mention that French are only 60million in population - a piss ant colony on global scale of anyone important

They can just as well shut the hell up

I am dumbfounded how you can consider the french revolution as terrorism, but not oh... the minutemen in the american revolution? The greek rebels when Rome took control? What the hell are you getting at Cronxeh, I really don't want to believe you're a bigot, please say something intelligent.

 

[Smurf]

Basicaly that the U.S. is having to revive some of Iraq's neglected wells by putting a lot of time money and water into them. Whereas we had expected to go into Iraq and just start pumping out that liquid gold for free.

I disagree. Getting more oil would only allow a more constant, cheaper supply into the US. The companies don't want that, burning oil wells and having all extractions problems, everything that's happening is what's driving prices up, and giving the companies big bucks. The point of invading Iraq is to make oil scarce so they can raise the price for it.

Maybe that's why they support the Saudi regime too, they know that if any non-oppressive regime were to come in there would be a lot less dissent and all the sudden the oil would be more regular and surplus.

 

[NewScientist]

I bit of research and I can make my post more accurate!

The 'first' Islamic terrorists were about 10 - 25 and were from the 11 century and were followers of Al-hassan Ibn-al-Sabbah, and they killed only Muslims.

 

[Art]

The french didn't invent terrorism - the word comes from an Arabic word and the 'first' terrorists were in about the 12th century and it was where an Islamic teacher instructed men to kill other men with the belief that they would go to heaven and have 7 pure blood virgins.

That may not be 100% accurtate but its far clsoer than claiming some oppressed, starving masses of 1790 were the 1st terrorists.

NS

Don't they get 12 vestal virgins these days? Must be index linked to the standard of living or something

 

[NewScientist]

Well I believe that it is 12 nowadays although it may not always have been so

 

[TRCSF]

The french didn't invent terrorism - the word comes from an Arabic word and the 'first' terrorists were in about the 12th century and it was where an Islamic teacher instructed men to kill other men with the belief that they would go to heaven and have 7 pure blood virgins.

That may not be 100% accurtate but its far clsoer than claiming some oppressed, starving masses of 1790 were the 1st terrorists.

NS

Oh, for crying out loud. The english word "terrorism" comes from the english word "terror," which comes from the latin word... wait for it... "terror."

The word "assassin" is derived from the arabic name "hashshashin" (lit. people who consume the drug hashish), a cult from 8th to the 14th century, mostly known for their politically motivated assassinations of the Abbasid elite.

For crying out loud people. Open a book.

 

[vanesch]

I am dumbfounded how you can consider the french revolution as terrorism, but not oh...

I think he's referring to the period just after the revolution called La Grande Terreur when Robbespierre had some fuses blowing in his brain and became totally paranoia, chopping heads off all over the place... until they chopped his head off.
Now, it is probably not the best translation to translate "La Grande Terreur" into the Big Terrorist :-)

 

[NewScientist]

Oh, for crying out loud. The english word "terrorism" comes from the english word "terror," which comes from the latin word... wait for it... "terror."

The word "assassin" is derived from the arabic name "hashshashin" (lit. people who consume the drug hashish), a cult from 8th to the 14th century, mostly known for their politically motivated assassinations of the Abbasid elite.

For crying out loud people. Open a book.

Ah yes that would be right also you could have aid derived from terrour the french or terrere but hey oops! And he is right baou tthe assasin thing! And the cult that consumed hashish were the men I referred to above who were convinced into their acts by Al-hassan Ibn-al-Sabbah.