Effect of zeros on impulse response

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effect of zeros on the impulse response of a passive bandpass filter, specifically examining the implications of the initial value theorem in the context of circuit behavior. Participants explore the mathematical and conceptual aspects of impulse responses in relation to circuit components such as inductors and resistors.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that the transfer function of the filter suggests an initial value of R/L for the impulse response, questioning how this aligns with the filter's high-frequency attenuation.
  • Another participant suggests dividing the numerator and denominator by s to re-evaluate the initial value, implying a mathematical approach to clarify the situation.
  • A reference to the initial value theorem is provided, indicating that the same result would be obtained regardless of the approach taken.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the step response yielding zero, indicating a need for further understanding.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of the Dirac delta function and its relationship to the Heaviside step function, suggesting that the behavior of the inductor at time zero is crucial to understanding the impulse response.
  • A participant challenges the logic that the current through the inductor cannot change instantaneously, arguing that the current should remain zero prior to the impulse and thus the voltage across the resistor should also be zero.
  • One participant agrees that an impulse with a Laplace transform of 1 could lead to a current step function in an inductor, although they note that such an impulse does not occur in nature.
  • Another participant highlights that an impulse contains all frequencies and infinite energy, suggesting a theoretical limit that results in a step function across an integrator.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the instantaneous behavior of current in the inductor and the implications for the impulse response. There is no consensus on the resolution of these conceptual challenges, and multiple competing interpretations remain present.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about circuit behavior and the mathematical treatment of impulse responses, which may not be universally applicable across different circuit topologies. The relationship between the Dirac delta function and the Heaviside step function is also a point of contention.

littlebilly91
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The transfer function of a passive bandpass filter has one zero and two poles.

The filter is:
Signal -> L -> C -> R -> Gnd,
where the signal is the input and the voltage across R is the output.

H(s) = \frac{sRC}{s^2LC+sRC+1}

Initial value theorem states that it's impulse response has an initial value of R/L. How can this be? The system filters out high frequencies, so it should not be able to change its voltage instantaneously in response to an impulse.
 
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Divide numerator and denominator by s and re-compute the initial value.
 
You are right. Has me stumped at the moment.

The step response (Vin = 1/s) would give zero. Strange.
 
OK --- Since the impulse is infinite, there is finite current in the inductor at time 0.

It has to do with the integral of the dirac delta function, which is the heaviside step function.
If you go to the wikipedia page for rl circuit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RL_circuit and look at the equation for the resistor current in the impulse response section, you can figure it out. The circuit topology is different, but by the logic you (and I) were applying you would expect the resistor current to be 0 at time 0, which it isn't.
 
I don't see what was wrong with our logic, though. The current can't change instantaneously through the inductor. Prior to the impulse, the current is zero. Once the impulse occurs, it shouldn't be able to jump. It follows that the current in the inductor is equal to the current in the resistor, and thus the voltage should be zero.

I see the math, and I've worked it myself both in this example and in the original and sure enough, there is a step function in the response. Does it make sense to you?
 
Yes. It makes sense that the sort of impulse that would have a laplace transform of 1 would be able to cause a current step function in an inductor. It doesn't exist in nature.

An impulse contains all frequencies = 1, and contains infinite energy. It the limit you get a step function across an integrator.
 

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