Electric Dipoles: Properties and Potential Solutions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of a gas composed of randomly oriented electric dipoles and how to describe their behavior without relying on the large volume approximation. Participants explore potential expressions for mean kinetic energy and interactions among dipoles, considering both thermodynamic arguments and many-body interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to describe the properties of a gas of electric dipoles and whether potential can be defined without the large volume approximation.
  • Another participant suggests that the discussion involves a mixture of evidence and thermodynamic arguments.
  • A reference to a paper on electron and anion mobility in low-density hydrogen cyanide gas is provided, noting that dipole gases can behave similarly to non-polar gases depending on density.
  • It is noted that the problem is a many-body issue requiring consideration of induced dipole-induced dipole interactions, with numerical solutions being complex.
  • One participant mentions starting with an analytic expression for a dipole interacting with a point charge, leading to a specific mathematical expression for the induced field contribution.
  • A suggestion is made to treat the dipole gas as a semi-ideal gas, accounting for translational, rotational, and vibrational degrees of freedom.
  • Clarification is requested regarding the potential energy of interacting dipoles, with an emphasis on averaging over angles to address net potential energy.
  • A participant raises a question about the inclusion of directional terms in the potential energy expression for dipoles in an electric field.
  • A mean field approximation is proposed as a method to calculate potential energy due to dipole orientation, suggesting a hybrid effect between free gas and ferromagnetism.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the properties and modeling of dipole gases, with no consensus reached on a single approach or solution. Multiple competing views and methods are presented, indicating an unresolved discussion.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations include the complexity of many-body interactions, the challenge of numerical solutions, and the dependence on specific assumptions regarding the behavior of dipoles in a gas.

Schrodu
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Suppose we have a gas of randomly oriented (and in random motion) electric dipoles. Obviously the dipoles do not behave as free particles. How do we describe it's properties? Can we define potential etc. ?
I am looking for a solution without the large volume approximation. Is it possible to get an expression for the mean kinetic energy etc. of a particle given its total energy?
 
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will get some answers here shreyas.
though i strictly believe this isseroius mixture of eveidence and thermodynamic arguments
 
you are talking about a truly many-body problem, where you must (usually) include the induced dipole-induced dipole interactions. if they don't matter, then why bother?

there are ways of doing this numerically, but they are difficult. you can start with an analytic expression by considering a dipole, mu=dq, interacting with a point charge, you'll then get

<br /> \nabla_\alpha \nabla_\beta \frac{1}{r}<br />

as the induced field contribution, which needs to be solved for numerically for anything but the simplest of systems. that's why most molecular simulation techniques ignore induced dipoles.
 
Last edited:
quetzalcoatl9 said:
there are ways of doing this numerically, but they are difficult. you can start with an analytic expression by considering a dipole, mu=dq, interacting with a point charge, you'll then get

<br /> \nabla_\alpha \nabla_\beta \frac{1}{r}<br />

.
Could you clarify that a bit? I am not used to the standard notations. In my original attempt, I calculated the potential energy of two interacting dipoles in terms of their spacing and orientation. I want to average this out in some way (integrating over the angle obviosly gives net potential energy 0)

Thanks for the help.
 
If you're looking for a simple solution, the only viable one is to treat it like a semi-ideal gas. The dipoles have translational, rotational and vibrational degrees of freedom, each of which is 1/2 kT per molecule in this simple approximation.
 
Schrodu said:
Could you clarify that a bit? I am not used to the standard notations. In my original attempt, I calculated the potential energy of two interacting dipoles in terms of their spacing and orientation. I want to average this out in some way (integrating over the angle obviosly gives net potential energy 0)

Thanks for the help.

the potential energy of interaction between a dipole and a point charge (if you draw out the two charges separated) that is far away is \nabla_a (\frac{1}{r})

since E = -\nabla V then the dipoles contribution to the induced field is the expression i gave.

do a scholar google search for "molecular polarization" if you are more interested. there are review articles out there that summarize the field. also, Jackson's E&M book may interest you.
 
I found in this paper(page no. 4)

dipole field E=\frac{\mu}{4\pi \epsilon_0 r^3} ...
... \frac{mv_w^2(r)}{2}=kT-(\frac{\mu_r^2}{4\pi \epsilon_0})(\frac{1}{d^3}-\frac{1}{r^3})
Shouldn't there be a term to take care of direction, U=\frac{\mu_r^2\cos\alpha}{4\pi \epsilon_0}?, \alpha is angle between field and the axis
 
You can also consider a mean field approximation -- that will allow you to calculate the potential energy due to the orientation of the dipoles. In fact, with that approximation, I guess you'd get a hybrid free-gas / Curie ferromagnet effect, with a phase change due to the orientation. As far as dipole-dipole forces beyond merely torque, perhaps use the Van de Waals approximation?
 

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