Electromagnetic force in electric motor

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the electromagnetic force in a DC motor with a permanent magnet and a groove rotor. Participants explore the relationship between electric current density and magnetic flux density within the motor's components, particularly focusing on the presence or absence of magnetic fields in the groove and surrounding materials.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant states that integrating the electromagnetic force equation results in zero due to the absence of magnetic field B in the groove where current density j exists.
  • Another participant asserts that there is a magnetic field B present in the groove.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the magnetic reluctance of groove materials, with one participant arguing that materials like copper and insulation have much higher reluctance than steel, suggesting that magnetic flux passes around the groove rather than through it.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the high magnetic reluctance of the groove materials allows the magnetic field to enter the groove, explaining why steel is not used for the armature.
  • One participant questions the relevance of a provided image to the discussion, while another insists that the image indicates a zero magnetic field in the groove.
  • There is a contention regarding the interpretation of the image, with one participant arguing that the magnetic field is not zero in the groove despite its coloring.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the presence of the magnetic field in the groove and the implications of material properties on magnetic flux. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives on these points.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the magnetic reluctance of various materials and the implications for electromagnetic force calculations, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the behavior of magnetic fields in the context of the motor's design.

batsan
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Suppose we have a DC motor with permanent magnet. Moreover, the armature of motor is groove rotor. The elementary electromagnetic force is given by: dF=jxBdv, where j is electric current density , x is vector multiplication , B - magnetic flux density , dv - elementary volume. If we integrate by all the volume, we will calculate only zero, because there is current density j in the groove , but there is no magnetic field B. Otherwise ,there is B in the steel , but no j.
How you can explain that?
 
Last edited:
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There is B in the groove.
 
Are you sure?
The magnetic resistance of the groove materials, such as copper, insulation ,air etc is many times more then steel. The magnetic flux pass around the groove, but not inside it.
 
batsan said:
Are you sure?
The magnetic resistance of the groove materials, such as copper, insulation ,air etc is many times more then steel. The magnetic flux pass around the groove, but not inside it.
The hig magnetic reluctance (not resistance) of those materials is what permits the B field to enter the groove. That is why steel is not used for the armature.
 
Ok. Is this correct picture or not?
http://www.mfly.de/animation_b.gif
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The picture is colorful, but I don't think it is relevant to your question or my answer.
 
Yes,this is AC motor, but formula for its force must be the same. As we see color of groove is blue and it corresponds to B=0.
 
The picture is colorful, but I don't think it is relevant to your question or my answer, since B is not zero in the groove however they color it.
 

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