Embedding curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime

• nickyrtr
In summary, the conversation discusses the embedding of curved spacetime in a higher-dimensional flat spacetime and the minimum number of dimensions required for this embedding. The Nash and Whitney embedding theorems are mentioned, with the conclusion that 8 dimensions are sufficient in any case, possibly even less. It is also noted that the Nash embedding theorem can work for pseudo-Riemannian manifolds, but the number of dimensions required may be large. The discussion also mentions the compactification of extra dimensions in string theory. Finally, the dimensionality requirement of (1/2)d(d+1) is mentioned, which was proven by power series development methods.
nickyrtr
I have been reading John Baez's introduction to General Relativity (http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/einstein/einstein.pdf). This part got me thinking:
Our curved spacetime need not be embedded in some higher-dimensional flat spacetime for us to understand its curvature, or the concept of tangent vector. The mathematics of tensor calculus is designed to let us handle these concepts `intrinsically' i.e., working solely within the 4-dimensional spacetime in which we find ourselves.

My question is, in order to completely model our universe's (3+1)-dimensional spacetime as a manifold in a higher-dimension, flat spacetime, how many dimensions are needed? Will a finite number of dimensions suffice, or are an infinite number of flat dimensions required to completely embed all solutions to the Einstein Equation?

If anyone can refer me to texts or publications that treat GR in this manner (as a curved manifold in higher-d flat spacetime) it would be much appreciated.

Amanheis said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitney_embedding_theorem

8 dimensions are sufficient in any case. Maybe even less.

That's very interesting. I notice that the Nash embedding theorem (linked from the Whitney embedding theorem Wikipedia page) mentions "isometric embedding", i.e. preserving the length of curves in the manifold, whereas the Whitney theorem does not. Going by this bit of the Nash theorem's explanation:

if M is a given m-dimensional Riemannian manifold (analytic or of class Ck, 3 ≤ k ≤ ∞), then there exists a number n (n = m2+5m+3 will do) and an injective map f : M → Rn (also analytic or of class Ck) such that for every point p of M, the derivative dfp is a linear map from the tangent space TpM to Rn which is compatible with the given inner product on TpM and the standard dot product of Rn

It looks like a 4-d curved spacetime can be isometrically embedded in a flat spacetime of 39 dimensions or less (m=4 -> m2+5m+3 = 16+20+3 = 39). Unwieldy perhaps, but at least it's a finite number of dimensions.

nickyrtr said:
That's very interesting. I notice that the Nash embedding theorem (linked from the Whitney embedding theorem Wikipedia page) mentions "isometric embedding", i.e. preserving the length of curves in the manifold, whereas the Whitney theorem does not.

Does the Nash isometric embedding theorem also work for pseudo-Riemannian manifolds?

atyy said:
Does the Nash isometric embedding theorem also work for pseudo-Riemannian manifolds?

If the metric for the higher dimensional pseudo-Riemannian manifold is required to restrict down to the metric for 4-dimensional spacetime, then it could take a lot of dimensions.

Chris Clarke* showed that every 4-dimensional spacetime can be embedded isometically in higher dimensional flat space, and that 90 dimensions suffices - 87 spacelike and 3 timelike. A particular spacetime may be embeddable in a flat space that has dimension less than 90, but 90 guarantees the result for all possible spacetimes.

* Clarke, C. J. S., "On the global isometric embedding of pseudo-Riemannian
manifolds," Proc. Roy. Soc. A314 (1970) 417-428

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whats about 10- 11- and 26 dimensional spaces? :)
Or may be these additional dimensions are already a part of a manifold?

Dmitry67 said:
whats about 10- 11- and 26 dimensional spaces? :)
Or may be these additional dimensions are already a part of a manifold?

Right. In the spacetime manifold in which string theory lives, the extra spacetime dimensions are compactified, so they're not easily physically visible.

My question is, in order to completely model our universe's (3+1)-dimensional spacetime as a manifold in a higher-dimension, flat spacetime, how many dimensions are needed? Will a finite number of dimensions suffice, or are an infinite number of flat dimensions required to completely embed all solutions to the Einstein Equation?

A d-dimensional (curved) space(time) can be be embedded (immersed) in a flat space of D = (1/2)d(d+1) dimensions. See L. P. Eisenhart, Riemannian Geometry, Princeton, 1997 (org. 1925), Ch. V, Par. 56, p. 188 or T. Levi-Civita, The Absolute Differential Calculus, Dover 1977 (org. 1926), Ch. V, Sec. 21, p. 122.

Notes:
Flat = it is possible to introduce coordinates xm such that ds2 = hmndxm(x)dxn(x) correctly describes distance (ds)2 with hmn fixed (independent of x).
Embedded = When x and dx are inside the sub-space, the ds2 above correctly describes the local distances in the sub-space.
In some cases, a flat space dimension < D suffices. Obviously an already flat space of d dimensions can be embedded in d dimensions.
Eisenhart gives an example of the Schwarzschild spherical space time curved 4-d space being embeddable in a 6 dimensional flat space (a special case).
For d = 4, D = 10 is the general requirement.
This only considers general relativity (gravitation), no other forces.

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The dimensionality requirement of (1/2)d(d+1) I mentioned earlier was proven by power series development methods (see references Janet, 1926 and Cartan, 1927 in Eisenhart's book mentioned earlier, also mentioned in the ref. below), and hence are local results (hold in some finite open set around a given point) and require that the original intrinsic space(time) metric is analytic in the coordinates. J. Nash, The Imbedding Problem for Riemannian Manifolds, Ann. of Math., Vol. 63, No. 1, Jan. 1956, pp. 20-63, gives a nice historical introduction to the problem and considers cases when less assumptions are made.

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George Jones said:
Chris Clarke* showed that every 4-dimensional spacetime can be embedded isometically in higher dimensional flat space, and that 90 dimensions suffices - 87 spacelike and 3 timelike.

Interesting.
What if we work with complex numbers as coordinates and hence completely ignore the difference between spacelike and timelike?

1. What is the concept of embedding curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime?

The concept of embedding curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime refers to the mathematical process of representing a curved spacetime, as described by Einstein's theory of general relativity, in a higher-dimensional flat spacetime. This is done by embedding the curved spacetime manifold into a higher-dimensional flat space, allowing us to visualize and study the curvature of spacetime in a more intuitive way.

2. Why is it important to embed curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime?

Embedding curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime allows us to better understand the relationship between gravity and the curvature of spacetime. It also helps us visualize and study the effects of gravity on the geometry of spacetime, which is crucial for understanding the behavior of massive objects in the universe.

3. How is curved spacetime embedded in higher-d flat spacetime mathematically?

The mathematical process of embedding curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime involves mapping the coordinates of the curved spacetime manifold onto a higher-dimensional flat space. This is typically done using mathematical tools such as tensors and differential geometry, which allow us to describe the geometry of spacetime in a precise and rigorous way.

4. What are some applications of embedding curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime?

One of the main applications of embedding curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime is in the study of black holes and other extreme gravitational phenomena. It also has applications in cosmology, where it helps us understand the large-scale structure of the universe and the evolution of the cosmos.

5. Are there any limitations to embedding curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime?

While embedding curved spacetime in higher-d flat spacetime is a useful mathematical tool, it is important to note that it is only an approximation and has its limitations. For example, it does not fully capture the effects of quantum mechanics, which are believed to play a role in extreme gravitational environments such as black holes. It is also limited in its ability to describe spacetime on a very small scale, such as at the subatomic level.

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