Engineering Engineering PhD: frustrated and unemployed

[unemployedphd]

I recently finished an engineering Ph.D. in the area of heat and mass transfer. I graduated from a top-ten engineering school. I have average publications but I am only 25 years old and know I have a lot of potential. Both my grad and undergrad GPA > 3.8.

I have been looking for a job for almost a year and I have found nothing. I have applied for everything: postdocs at universities, industrial jobs, faculty positions, national laboratory jobs, postdoctoral fellowships, and even financial analyst positions. Literally I have sent out hundreds of resumes and made many dozens of phone calls.

I have done my best to seek help and advice from my contacts and personal connections. I had two very successful internships at national laboratories and I have great relationships with many professors. However, I have not been able to find a position.

I know my resume is solid and my interview skills are at least average. In 2007, after I got my Masters, I applied for five jobs. I interviewed for every position and received several offers. I decided to forgo the offers and pursue my Ph.D. Right now the major problem is that I can’t even get interviews.

I am so frustrated. I am also tired of writing proposals only to see them rejected with no explanation.

I am on the verge of bankruptcy. I cannot pay my bills. I have been making less than $1300 a month working part time. My credit gets worse and worse. I had to have an emergency surgery a couple of years ago and I have many unpaid medical bills. At this point, I am worried that when I do land a job offer I will be denied the opportunity because of my abysmal credit.

I am confident that I am a great candidate. I really need some anonymous advice. What am I doing wrong?

 

[edgepflow]

It is truly unfortunate to see people work so long and hard on a subject as difficult as physics, earn advanced degrees, and then encounter difficulty finding employment. I see this in many threads in these forums.

You mentioned you had several job offers after you earned your masters. Was there items on your resume at that time that you have removed?

 

[Choppy]

It doesn't sound like you're doing anything wrong.

You could try changing your game a little. While I understant that it works for some people, I've never been a fan of the shotgun approach to looking for a job (emailing out hundreds of resumes).

What's worked for me has been more of a sniper approach. Take your time to research a position well to find out (a) if you're qualified and (b) if it's something you really want to do. Contact anyone you can who may have some background information on the position. Then find out who is making the hiring decision and contact that person directly. And then follow up. In my experience, resumes are just place holders.

 

[ParticleGrl]

I feel your pain, I have a physics phd and have been unemployed for nearly as long. My recommendation for the meantime is to swallow any pride you have and find an upscale restaurant (or a bar, if you have any experience bartending) and wait tables. You'll clear way more money then what you are making now. I pull in 1200 in tips some weekends. Its a bit late in the season (generally places pull in extra staff beginning of summer), but you can probably find some places that need reliable workers.

You could try removing your phd from your resume. I downgraded my resume/CV to just a masters (and listed teaching and research as job experiences) and am getting twice as many job interviews as I was before. I still haven't landed anything, but more interviews has to be increasing the odds. A few head hunters have suggested I give up on traditional technical work completely, and focus on business analytics (finance isn't big in my geographic area), which is a pill I haven't been able to swallow quite yet, but I'm getting sick of mixing drinks.

 

[gravenewworld]

People don't want to believe it, but you really can educate yourself out of opportunities, a lot of firms simply don't want to hire highly trained individuals anymore because they're "overqualified". These days an education isn't a golden ticket for even a modest middle class income. I have a very, very pessimistic outlook for my economic future and simply don't know anymore what is going to happen when I get out of grad school. Europe and North America are falling apart big time economically, and it may take decades to recover. You may have to start looking overseas or like others have said, work a terrible job to make ends meet and find work in a different field all together.

 

[MathematicalPhysicist]

Grave, if things are bad in the USA and Europe I don't think you can expect it to be any better elsewhere.

 

[Pengwuino]

Grave, if things are bad in the USA and Europe I don't think you can expect it to be any better elsewhere.

Not true. China, boom. Done.

 

[twofish-quant]

People don't want to believe it, but you really can educate yourself out of opportunities, a lot of firms simply don't want to hire highly trained individuals anymore because they're "overqualified".

And they have good reasons for doing that. If you hire someone that is more qualified than the position calls for, then when/if the economy improves, they'll leave or ask for more money, whereas if you hire someone without qualifications, they are stuck.

The other thing is that you run into social issues if you have an employee thinks that they are more qualified than their supervisor. It could be true. It could not be true, but either way it's a tricky problem.

And then you could be misqualified. Just because I have a Ph.D. doesn't mean that I'm a competent bank teller or shoe salesman.

I have a very, very pessimistic outlook for my economic future and simply don't know anymore what is going to happen when I get out of grad school. Europe and North America are falling apart big time economically, and it may take decades to recover.

A decade is a long time economically speaking. One reason to be optimistic is that the Great Depression lasted for "only" about 10 years. Also things can only fall so far before people get mad and try to do something about it, and you can only make so many mistakes before you run out of stupid things to do.

You may have to start looking overseas or like others have said, work a terrible job to make ends meet and find work in a different field all together.

The problem with looking for work overseas is that other countries may not take you. China and India have booming economies, but the governments have their hands full with returnees, and are not interested in taking on more people than they have to. China will not issue work visas to people with less than two years of work experience.

Also what China did isn't particularly original. What it effectively did was to print massive amounts of money, do lots of deficit spending, to stop unemployment. There are people that thing that because of this that the Chinese economy will blow up. They might be right, but if the Chinese economy doesn't blow up, then there will be a lot of pressure on Europe and NA to copy China.

 

[Ken Natton]

I recently finished an engineering Ph.D. in the area of heat and mass transfer.

As part of an ERC funded project, we are seeking a Postdoctoral Researcher to join a small group seeking to understand fundamental aspects of how temperature stress impinges on grain-formation. You will hold a PhD...

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3437418#post3437418


Don’t know if there is any relationship or if I am the only one to spot the connection. Is it not worth investigating?

 

[PatrickEE]

This may seem heartless, but I am glad you posted as it gives engineers a look into the current job market. To have done so much good work over nearly a decade only to be shunned by employers would be infuriating. This definitely solidifies my decision to finish my masters and get out.

In terms of your job search, I would focus heavily on skills (Matlab, C, modeling software) and key courses that are related to the job being applied for. And certainly have a good summary of your experience and goals as they directly relate to the position.
Also, are you an EIT or PE?

 

[kalakoi]

This may seem heartless, but I am glad you posted as it gives engineers a look into the current job market. To have done so much good work over nearly a decade only to be shunned by employers would be infuriating. This definitely solidifies my decision to finish my masters and get out.

In terms of your job search, I would focus heavily on skills (Matlab, C, modeling software) and key courses that are related to the job being applied for. And certainly have a good summary of your experience and goals as they directly relate to the position.
Also, are you an EIT or PE?

You think that for engineers MATLAB and c are the most important things to master?
What more ,by the way?

Also, i do believe that in todays world is better to get out with a masters than to go to the phd!

 

[twofish-quant]

Also, i do believe that in todays world is better to get out with a masters than to go to the phd!

I'm not so sure.

1) I would like to see some real evidence that people with masters degrees are having an easier time getting jobs than Ph.D.'s. This *isn't* true for people that I know personally since the situation is that people with Ph.D.'s are having a tough time, but people with masters degrees are having it even tougher. Also, every labor statistic that I've seen says that the unemployment rate for Ph.D.'s is below people with masters degrees.

If you have someone with a masters degree say that they have no problem getting jobs, I'll listen closely to them and try to figure out what that means, but I haven't seen anyone actually say this, and I've looked. Note here that the job market in 2007 is wildly different from the market today. Unemployment in 2007 was 4.6%. Latest number was 9.1% and that likely undercounts.

2) A lot of the reason people think that a Ph.D. will hurt you is that that ends up happening is that the employer looks at the resume and says "overqualified." This does happen and that knocks the Ph.D. out of the running, but then you have a room full of people with masters degrees scrambling after the same jobs.

 

[Pyrrhus]

It depends on who those the hiring. One of my friends completed a PhD in Engineering, and within 5-6 months, She was able to find a job. Now, the committee hiring was full of PhDs. I think that helps significantly!.

 

[kalakoi]

I'm not so sure.

1) I would like to see some real evidence that people with masters degrees are having an easier time getting jobs than Ph.D.'s. This *isn't* true for people that I know personally since the situation is that people with Ph.D.'s are having a tough time, but people with masters degrees are having it even tougher. Also, every labor statistic that I've seen says that the unemployment rate for Ph.D.'s is below people with masters degrees.

It depends on what area are those Ph.D's!In engineering most jobs aren't nearly as demanding as a specific physics jobs.

Obviously that for physics related jobs the more knowledge you got and the more "intelligent"(finishing with great GPA) you are, hence the Ph.D, it means more opportunities because that area is in itself related to development, evolution etc...

While in engineering , the job in itself is more soft, more down to earth!
Nothing out of the reach for the majority of the science related majors science wannabes!

With the pure hard sciences such as math and physics the story is way to diferent!
Its more about what you really are and is more to who can, not to who wants!

Obviously when talking about physics and math majors in non direct related jobs such as finance jobs, things are different!

If you have someone with a masters degree say that they have no problem getting jobs, I'll listen closely to them and try to figure out what that means, but I haven't seen anyone actually say this, and I've looked. Note here that the job market in 2007 is wildly different from the market today. Unemployment in 2007 was 4.6%. Latest number was 9.1% and that likely undercounts.

I don't have many friends with science related majors but i do know that the great majority of medium to big companies have the Ph.D's jobs already "given".
Also, most companies would prefer accepting a masters rather than a Ph.D with the same kind of skills!

2) A lot of the reason people think that a Ph.D. will hurt you is that that ends up happening is that the employer looks at the resume and says "overqualified." This does happen and that knocks the Ph.D. out of the running, but then you have a room full of people with masters degrees scrambling after the same jobs.

It happens more and more, and sometimes i hear or see histories of "overqualified" people who won't accept settle for a "lesser" job!

Or the company just doesn't want to spend a bit more because of having him!

 

[Vanadium 50]

A PhD in engineering is a rather unusual degree - it's intended to lead one towards an academic or at least research position, rather than as a practicing engineer: that degree is Mech. E. or Chem. E. or E.E. The natural path forward is as a postdoc.

What does your thesis advisor say about why you can't find a postdoc?

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

In my little corner of the world, a PhD doesn't earn you any more credibility than someone with On The Job experience would have. I know some people in my line of work with PhD certificates and they're no better off than anyone else.

Engineering is very much a hands-on field. There are many practical things that you just can't learn in a classroom. If you are closer to the theoretical side of the field, that's great, but the money and jobs are usually in more practical hands-on places.

If you haven't done so already, take the EIT. Take whatever work you can find, but be sure to write something for a magazine or a major blog site on the Internet. It doesn't have to be academic. In fact it may be better if it isn't.

I see it often: people get so focused on school that they forget it is merely a means to an end. It is your foot in the door towards a career. If the career is in academia, a PhD is a good thing. Other than academia, however, a PhD isn't usually something industry would look for.

 

[Shaun_W]

It could be because a lot of engineering jobs are less interested in academic qualifications than someone who can demonstrate that they will fit into the team and perform the job at hand well. Your qualifications may be irrelevant for the job you're applying to. Of all the projects that I've seen, people with only undergraduate degrees were able to perform the heat and mass transfer work.

And also, as others have said, the natural progression from a PhD is to academia, not industry. A bachelors is nearly always enough for industry.

 

[brushman]

Also, every labor statistic that I've seen says that the unemployment rate for Ph.D.'s is below people with masters degrees.

Where can I find unemployment statistics for PhDs? This is all I've found: http://www.aip.org/statistics/trends/highlite/emp3/figure1a.htm

 

[uby]

The economy is certainly difficult at the moment, and industry/government positions are few and far between. However, I am surprised that you have found difficulty in landing a post-doc position. Academic post-doc positions seem to always be available -- especially for U.S. citizens working on energy or defense-related projects (many of which involve transfer process modeling).

If you were to do a search in Google Scholar for areas directly and indirectly related to your expertise, and pull up a list of ten authors who have published recently in these fields, and then contact them to see if they have any post-doc funding -- you might find some leads.

 

[twofish-quant]

In my little corner of the world, a PhD doesn't earn you any more credibility than someone with On The Job experience would have. I know some people in my line of work with PhD certificates and they're no better off than anyone else.

In my corner (software and finance) what ends up happening is that what you did as a Ph.D. gets counted as "work experience" so Ph.D. = masters + 3-5 years experience.

I see it often: people get so focused on school that they forget it is merely a means to an end. It is your foot in the door towards a career.

This depends on the culture. In my family, people got Ph.D.'s for the sake of getting the Ph.D., and getting a career really wasn't part of the bargain. My general advice is if you are concerned only about career, then a Ph.D. isn't worth it. Now if you have non-career reasons for getting a Ph.D. it's different.

If the career is in academia, a PhD is a good thing. Other than academia, however, a PhD isn't usually something industry would look for.

This is also very society/culture dependent.

I do know one person that was a geologist who was in technical software sales and ended up doing a part-time Ph.D. in petroleum engineering for career reasons. The reason is that we did a lot of business selling oil software to the Middle East and East Asia, and in that area, having the word "Doctor" in front of your name gets a *LOT* of respect and influence so it helps him sell software there. Because people with Ph.D.'s are very highly respected in the Middle East and East Asia, having one will help you get hired in the oil/gas world.

 

[edgepflow]

Just to add something to the discussion about PhDs in industry.

Companies that emphasize R&D often seek PhDs. I have seen this at several companies I have worked for. They prefer a PhD for certain research positions.

 

[bjc219]

All of these posts apply to Engineering PhDs, correct? I assume the ballgame is a bit different for Physics PhDs.

 

[edgepflow]

All of these posts apply to Engineering PhDs, correct? I assume the ballgame is a bit different for Physics PhDs.

I have seen situations in which an advanced chemical process development involves both PhD chemists and PhD chemical engineers. If your PhD was in physics, and you wanted an R&D job in industry, I would think with some effort and planning you could receive serious consideration for these openings.

 

[ParticleGrl]

All of these posts apply to Engineering PhDs, correct? I assume the ballgame is a bit different for Physics PhDs.

It depends on your specialty. My anecdotes would suggest engineers have a bit of an easier time finding work in industry, both because their phd programs tend to require internships where they make some connections, and because they fit into a 'slot' that the company is used to dealing with.

Lots of companies know what to do with an electrical engineer but have no idea what to do with a high energy physicists, for instance.

 

[bjc219]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm still an undergraduate student, and I'm working on two degrees -- one in Physics and one in Chemical Engineering. Still thinking about graduate school.

 

[absurdist]

Have you tried applying for a job in countries with economically oleaginous potential. You have I presume some background in ChemE since you specialize in H and M ttansfer?
The oil industry needs more engineers esp in the middle east...

 

[StatGuy2000]

Have you tried applying for a job in countries with economically oleaginous potential. You have I presume some background in ChemE since you specialize in H and M ttansfer?
The oil industry needs more engineers esp in the middle east...

I'm actually surprised that more Americans (I'm assuming most of the people responding here are Americans) have not applied to various industry positions in Canada, particularly in the province of Alberta (which, like Texas, is known for its oil & gas industry), where there is a quite healthy employment situation.

I'm certain that there would be positions open for geophysicists, chemical engineers, electrical engineers, etc. for people willing to work in the oil industry. However, I could be wrong about this (disclaimer: I have never worked in the oil industry).

 

[smashbrohamme]

I am glad I did it the good ol fashion way. When I got out of High School I learned a trade(industrial electrician, electrical assembler) and I ran with that to land me a nice paying job in the middle class 45K salary. I went to school to get my Computer Aided Drafting and Design AAS degree. I knew this would be the quickest way into the engineering department as a designer for my company. Now all I have to do is get my electrical engineering degree which I am currently doing and I am gaurantee a engineering job as a electrical engineer.

True I will be about 27 years old when I finish but when I graduate I will have a gauranteed job and about 6 years experience in my related field and have already put 4+ years with my current company. Not a bad trade off. Oh their paying for it as well.

 

[JamesGoh]

To the original poster, may I suggest trying to get yourself involved in volunteer/unpaid opportunties related to mechanical engineering ?

Even if its a step down from your PHD, experience (whether paid or unpaid) is more relevant.

While you do your volunteer work, find some part time work to help you pay your bills

I couldn't get into RF Design engineering because of my lack of experience, so what I do is that I volunteer at my local community radio station and work parttime to pay the bills

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

True I will be about 27 years old when I finish but when I graduate I will have a gauranteed job and about 6 years experience in my related field and have already put 4+ years with my current company. Not a bad trade off. Oh their paying for it as well.

This is not wasted time. You will have experience that a great many engineers will never get: how things actually look in the field.

I did something similar except that my employer's financial assistance barely managed to pay for my books. Still, I persevered.

I have known a great many engineers who are no smarter than I am, but who have absolutely no experience using test equipment and can't be trusted to use a soldering iron correctly. They also don't know much about how various parts age or fail. With the field experience you'll have, you'll be years ahead of the rest of the pack.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it to anyone who will listen: Engineering is the application of academic concepts to a practical world. You have to have your feet firmly planted on BOTH sides of the reality. I have no patience with engineers who don't know how the design actually works or performs. Some make designs that can't be built; others make designs that don't work as expected.

Spending time at a practical trade is actually better spent than most things that people do while studying engineering.

 

[streeters]

I know my resume is solid and my interview skills are at least average...Right now the major problem is that I can’t even get interviews.

If you are not getting interviews, then your resume isn't suitable.

The point of a resume/CV is to get you an interview. If this is not happening, you need to re-write it.

I worked as a recruitment consultant for a few years and this is the mantra we repeated several times a day. It's usually pretty true.

 

[engr405]

OP, I find it hard to believe that someone with a PhD from a top 10 school is unemployed!

Did you ask some of your employed friends to take a look at your resume? Do you tailor your resume to the position you are applying to? Do you come across as someone who is easy to get along/work with?

The semiconductor industry is currently on a hiring spree... Intel, Samsung and Globalfoundries. Most industry jobs are unfulfilling and braindead compared to research, but you will make good money!What is your visa status ? Are you a citizen/green card holder?

Tech companies lament on the fact that they don't have any citizens they can hire... there is no way they won't call you for at least an interview!

A little about me: Recent cond. matter physics PhD working in one of the companies mentioned above.

 

[ParticleGrl]

OP, I find it hard to believe that someone with a PhD from a top 10 school is unemployed!

I know of at least four phds from the top 10 physics program I went to who are unemployed or underemployed (bartending, in nursing school, getting an actuarial degree) or unemployed for more than a few months. This is just people I know personally who graduated in the last 6 months and didn't want a postdoc.

The only people I know who have found industrial positions quickly are condensed matter people who worked on silicon.

Tech companies lament on the fact that they don't have any citizens they can hire...

Tech companies lament publicly and fail to even interview privately. If tech companies really lamented a lack of people they can hire, they'd snap up semi-relevant phds and train them, instead of waiting for someone pre-trained in the exact job. Thats what happens when there is a shortage- people who are trainable get snapped up and trained, look at the dot come boom. Right now, there is no tech shortage. The cynic in me often thinks they lament the "shortage" to keep a flood of people going into tech to reduce salaries.

They want people whose phds or undergrad education trained them for the exact job. Great if you are a condensed matter guy who worked on silicon and learned some relevant techniques, terrible if you are a theorist, or did astrophysics, etc.

 

[hadsed]

A little about me: Recent cond. matter physics PhD working in one of the companies mentioned above.

I'm a little more interested about you (since I work in condensed matter physics). Are you a theorist/computationalist or an experimentalist? What do you do, what skills were you hired for, etc.? I'm just rather interested in where people who work in condensed matter theory end up (if you're an experimentalist that might be entirely different, though perhaps someone will find it useful).

 

[gravenewworld]

Welcome to the realities of the US economy. Our populace is too educated and there's simply not enough jobs for everyone.

 

[engr405]

Particle Girl: I agree that it's tough for people in astrophysics/theory to find industry positions. But I still insist that the OP, given his background, shouldn't find it that hard to find one!

Semi companies do have programs where they hire fresh phds and train them... Globalfoundries' GTP and Intel's RCG programs for example. Semiconductor equipment vendors also have similar programs (Applied Materials, Lam research, Kla Tencor etc etc).
The job search is much easier if you are a citizen/permanent resident. Please make sure you advertise this on your resume!

Hadsed: My grad school work was in experimental cond. matter. I am not sure what skills they hired me for; my current role as a process engineer has nothing to do with my grad school research.

Finally, for those of you who work in experimental physics... there are plenty of jobs! Please make sure your resume is tailored to what they are looking for and continue to apply.
Also take a look at Glassdoor.com. The data there is pretty accurate as far as interviewing, salary and job satisfaction are concerned.

 

[twofish-quant]

Tech companies lament publicly and fail to even interview privately. If tech companies really lamented a lack of people they can hire, they'd snap up semi-relevant phds and train them, instead of waiting for someone pre-trained in the exact job.

The problem is that there is no waiting. The way that it works is that the bean counters tell us that we can hire X people. If we can hire two people, and it so happens that we have two people with exactly the requirements we want, then they get hired. The trouble right now is that there is no shortage of people that meet exactly the right requirements.

The cynic in me often thinks they lament the "shortage" to keep a flood of people going into tech to reduce salaries.

This might have worked a year or two ago, but with 10% unemployment, there isn't anything like a shortage of qualified people. The problem at my level is we are only allowed the hire the number of people that the bean counters let us hire. Now, as for how the bean counters get at that number, that's another interesting discussion, but it's pretty depressing.

They want people whose phds or undergrad education trained them for the exact job. Great if you are a condensed matter guy who worked on silicon and learned some relevant techniques, terrible if you are a theorist, or did astrophysics, etc.

There are companies that love astrophysicists.

 

[twofish-quant]

Welcome to the realities of the US economy. Our populace is too educated and there's simply not enough jobs for everyone.

One can consider leaving the US...

 

[theengineer83]

Sorry, but this seems a fake post. A PhD engineer?? What kind of engineering degree you have, and from which institution you have your grade? The unemployment for PhD in engineering is extremely low (usually approx. 1%). The average salary of PhD in engineering is above 90k with a six-figure is pretty normal for PhD in some fields like computer science. Many companies are reporting difficulties in finding doctorate in engineering especially in computer science (rather than the academic track and other similar options). May be you can provide some more information, like what kind of institution you got your degree from, which state are you, ... Sorry but I think it is a fake post ...

 

[squall211]

Ummm ... companies very rarely "look" for PhD engineers. Most engineering designers have bachelors or masters degrees, and you don't need a research qualification to be a designer, since you're not doing academic research.

True industrial research positions where you're publishing papers and such is a very small minority of positions.

That's why I can believe the post quite easily. You're given the task as a PhD'er of selling yourself for the same position as a bachelor's or master's graduate but are asking for a sizeable pay increase over the masters position but have no practical job experience. Plus its easy to come off as if you are 'settling' to the employer, so in a down economy, it can be quite tough!

 

[twofish-quant]

Sorry, but this seems a fake post. A PhD engineer??

I'm a bit curious about what your background is.

What kind of engineering degree you have, and from which institution you have your grade? The unemployment for PhD in engineering is extremely low (usually approx. 1%).

Unemployment statistics can be misleading because they don't take into account underemployment. The OP has a job and is not collecting unemployment benefits so he would be statistically counted as employed.

The average salary of PhD in engineering is above 90k with a six-figure is pretty normal for PhD in some fields like computer science.

There are problems with these statistics...

1) they don't take into account subgroups. Namely, the fact that people that got hired in the middle of the dot com boom (like me) have decent jobs isn't helpful to people looking for work now.

2) "average" tells you nothing about the extremes.

3) data collection issues. A lot of these statistics depend on surveys and if you are un/underemployed, you aren't going to be in the mood to report your salary

Many companies are reporting difficulties in finding doctorate in engineering especially in computer science (rather than the academic track and other similar options).

Having worked on the inside, I'm dubious of this statement. When a company says "we have difficulty finding people" they are really saying "we have difficulty finding people that work 100 hours a week for nothing." The vast majority of computer jobs are application programming jobs that do not require a Ph.D. in CS (which is good for me since my Ph.D. is in astrophysics). There are a few research jobs, but they are only somewhat less hard to get than academic jobs.

The other thing is that you will find that there are many CS Ph.D.'s that just can't program, which shouldn't be surprising if you think about it. Just because you have a Ph.D. in English literature doesn't mean that you can write novels and having a Ph.D. in Art doesn't mean that you can paint.

Sorry but I think it is a fake post ...

One reason I'm interested in your background is that I'm curious *why* you think it's a fake post. It seems quite reasonable to me.

 

[twofish-quant]

That's why I can believe the post quite easily. You're given the task as a PhD'er of selling yourself for the same position as a bachelor's or master's graduate

And this is a particular problem because most Ph.D.'s are not taught basic sales skills.

Personally, I've found it useless to try to "sell" a Ph.D. If the person that you are talking to doesn't already think a Ph.d. is valuable, then it's a waste of time to try to convince them, because they can get someone else just as easily.

The two things that work are to either find someone that is already convinced that a Ph.D. is useful (and that works best of the person that is interviewing has a Ph.D.), or to just have people ignore the Ph.D.

asking for a sizeable pay increase over the masters position but have no practical job experience.

If the employer doesn't specifically need a Ph.D., then there is no point in asking for a pay increase.

Plus its easy to come off as if you are 'settling' to the employer, so in a down economy, it can be quite tough!

It's easy to come off as this because it's the truth. Part of doing sales is to deal with unpleasant facts that are obviously true to everyone.

One problem that Ph.D.'s have to face is the problem of being "overqualified." If the employer happens to believe that Ph.D.'s can walk on water and turn water into wine, and that you are as smart as Stephen Hawking, they may toss your application because they think you are *too smart*. Managers are people too, and it's quite common for a manager not to want to hire someone that has better qualifications than they do because they are terrified that you will take their job. Sometimes being more qualified makes you less qualified.

Dealing with this is part of sales and marketing. What I've done that works is that if I feel like the person I'm talking to is threatened by me, I start acting like Jerry Lewis and the absent minded professor.

 

[symbolipoint]

twofish-quant wrote this:

The two things that work are to either find someone that is already convinced that a Ph.D. is useful (and that works best of the person that is interviewing has a Ph.D.), or to just have people ignore the Ph.D.

Once the candidate progresses far enough through the process for a job, he will need to decide: Pretend not to have a Ph.D, tell them, or merely omit it temporarily. Some employers are afraid of Ph.D candidates for reasons already discussed. Some employers might be afraid of even some candidates who even did undergraduate research for similar reasons.

 

[twofish-quant]

Once the candidate progresses far enough through the process for a job, he will need to decide: Pretend not to have a Ph.D, tell them, or merely omit it temporarily.

1) This issue comes up the second you write the resume

2) As a practical matter, you cannot pretend to not have a Ph.d., because that leaves a huge gap in your resume and if you don't mention that you did a Ph.D., people will assume that you were in jail for dealing heroin. If you have a five to seven year unexplained gap in your resume, it's dead. No one is going to touch it.

The best you can do is to make the Ph.D. irrelevant. I have a version of my resume in which I list the years that I was in university as "programmer". Yes I got a Ph.D. at the end (which I mention in small letters in the resume), but that's irrelevant.

Some employers are afraid of Ph.D candidates for reasons already discussed. Some employers might be afraid of even some candidates who even did undergraduate research for similar reasons.

If you have an employer that doesn't want a Ph.d., then you are just not going to get the job. Your resume will be trashed at the very beginning and there is nothing that you can do about it. But having your resume trashed at the beginning is a *good thing* if you aren't going to get the job anyway.

 

[theengineer83]

"One reason I'm interested in your background is that I'm curious *why* you think it's a fake post. It seems quite reasonable to me."
I am also a PhD graduate in CS, and I do not know any friend (though i network a lot) who is unemployed, or even underemployed (in the sense that he works in a bar or cafe :-) ), but of course it is not always possible to work in the exact position that you want, this is also a hard constraint. Like some of my friends work in management, some in senior development, some are consultant, some in academia ... But this does not mean that you have to work in the exact specific area where you did your research on ...
"most Ph.D.'s are not taught basic sales skills"
Well this is definitely not true. Most of people I know, have very good communication skills, because during the PhD you have to read a lot, develop and write code, present your work. One of my friend is working as CEO and another as team leader, and both are PhDs. I do not know who makes this stereo type about PhDs. If any PhD engineer (but a real PhD and not a fake blogger) is really unemployed (or working in a bar :-) ), please let me know, and let me also know the name of the institution, from which he/she gets her PhD from ...

 

[azaharak]

I have a masters in physics and I had an extremely hard time finding a low paying lecturer job. I had to leave my Phd program due to lack of research support / TA support. It was very stressful and I remember that I was offered a few positions before attending grad school making 30 to 60% more than I'm making now.

There was about a 2 year period where I was unemployed / adjuncting / doing odd end jobs. I had applied to many jobs (over 300), reevaluated my resume and cover letter numerous times. I was even considering a commission with the U.S. Navy Nuclear instructor program before I fell into my current lecturer position.

If I had to do it again, I would have chose something more applied. Now I'm looking into a medical physics program (eventually).

Its definitely not easy, but sometimes you have to look everywhere and outside the box. You definitely need an open mindset and to maintain your sanity, don't get discouraged or depressed because it will lead to a downward spiral.

Its depressing because I know there are people who put less effort into their education and have had an easier time finding work or earning a decent wage. The more difficult the struggle to more stronger you get.

Goodluck

 

[twofish-quant]

Well this is definitely not true. Most of people I know, have very good communication skills, because during the PhD you have to read a lot, develop and write code, present your work.

That's not sales and marketing. Academia is very structured and I don't know of any situation in which a Ph.D. student is asked to call up someone they've never talked to, make a pitch with the knowledge that there is a 95% chance that the person they talk to will say no.

Also much of sales involves less communication than listening skills. Generally in academia you are doing presentations to people with similar backgrounds. Trying to give a presentation to someone of a totally different background with no personal connection to you can be very rough.

 

[turbo]

We should back up a bit and get our heads out of academia. Engineering is quite specific and demands skill-sets that differ not just company-to-company, but plant-to-plant within companies. I was a process chemist in a start-up Kraft pulp mill many years ago. In that setting, I was paired up with newly-minted engineers, training them so that they could be my supervisors later. It was a running joke for us chemists. The career-track for the technical department was geared to accept and promote engineers, but we never got engineers that could hit the ground running, and had to train them on the job. It sucked to earn about 2/3 the bucks of your prize student, but that's life.

After a year or so as an environmental chemist, I got a cushy day job as a project chemist. Guess what I did? I spent much of my time for the next year running heat and mass balances on all the mill's water systems (pulp mills use a LOT of water!). The engineer that I worked with got most of the credit for the $$$$$$ saved, but I was the one who collected the data, and figured out how and where to collect the data to make it usable. Another newer engineer (a drinking buddy of mine) supplied the FORTRAN skills to make our data analysis viable and accessible to the upper management, which was not a negligible contribution by any means. This was back in the day when transmitting data for analysis with SAS back at HQ was an overnight chore.

A degree in engineering (even an advanced degree) does not guarantee one access to good jobs. If I was hiring, I would take a new engineer like my nephew (who was a highly-valued intern at a local paper mill every summer) over an engineer with an advanced degree who had never worked in his/her field. Engineering is applied, not theoretical. Got experience? You'll probably get hired. No experience and no real track-record? You may not get the second look even if you deserve it.

 

[stn]

hi guys
if you deny that a PhD grad should have no problem looking for a job, can you please tell us
1. what companies are hiring a PhDs?
2. where to look for jobs for a PhD level?
3. any website to search?

I also have a similar situation, however, i change a PhD into a research assistant, from then onwards i obtained many interviews...
but, perhaps i also apply for wrong jobs at wrong locations...

some says bioengineering industrial are craving for a PhD grad, but who are those companies, and where? what about Canada industries?? as i am in Canada

thanks

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

I have noticed that many people go gliding through school with not a thought in their head as to what they'll do when they graduate. You have to have some idea of what you'd like to do by the time you graduate from high school. It doesn't have to be specific, but you ought to know what sorts of things you like doing. Compounding this sense of aimlessness, there is this myth among academic circles that study is its own reward, and that all you have to do is to go to school, graduate, and then magically someone will offer you a job doing exactly what you studied for.

It ain't like that.

Education presents doors of opportunity, but it is up to you to find them and open them. A PhD is an indicator that someone knows how to study things to the edge of human knowledge or experience, discover something, and document it. That skill alone does not translate directly to business success. There are manufacturing, marketing, accounting, ethics, leadership, psychology, and so many more issues that are required as well. A PhD does not necessarily teach those things. In fact, learning all these fields requires a great deal of talent, experience, patience, and circumspection.

It is called personal development. And if you were not also learning these things at home, in your community, and in your hobbies while going to school since your earliest days of Kindergarten, you have missed many lessons.

So you ask where those jobs are for PhD degrees: They're available if you know how to market yourself, how to expand your interests, how to understand the people around you, and how to lead others. From the perspective of someone in Management, a PhD shows that you know how to study something with great discipline and document it for someone else. What that thing may be is almost irrelevant. It is almost certain that what you studied is nearly useless to someone in business today. It usually takes decades and sometimes even centuries for some of these discoveries to sink into common understanding.

To get a career, someone with a PhD must shift gears. Turn your focus from the very specialized to the broader context of what is needed to take this experience and translate it to something useful to someone. I can't tell you where that is, or what that will be.

The honest, brutal answer is that very few PhD programs have direct utility in the regular working world. But if you're thoughtful, outgoing, curious, and willing to try something completely new, you'll do okay.