Entropy in big bang vs big crunch

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    Big bang Entropy
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of entropy in the context of the big bang and the big crunch, exploring theoretical explanations for the perceived differences in entropy levels between these two cosmological events. The scope includes theoretical physics and conceptual reasoning.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that there is no generally accepted explanation for the differences in entropy between the big bang and the big crunch.
  • One participant references Roger Penrose's work, suggesting that it discusses the relationship between entropy and the absence of observed white holes, although they do not provide specific details.
  • Another participant proposes that entropy is a measure of the number of different states in a system, suggesting that the low entropy at the big bang correlates with fewer particle types and fundamental forces, while entropy increases as the universe evolves towards the big crunch.
  • A different viewpoint is presented, arguing that entropy is zero at the big bang due to the infinite order of a point in dimensionless space, while it approaches infinity in dimensioned space during a big crunch, implying a relationship between spatial dimensions and entropy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between entropy and cosmological events, with no consensus reached on a definitive explanation or understanding of the concepts discussed.

Contextual Notes

Some statements rely on interpretations of entropy that may depend on specific definitions or assumptions about space and dimensions, which remain unresolved in the discussion.

rjbeery
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Is there a generally accepted Physics explanation of the apparent "small entropy" of the big bang vs the apparent "large entropy" of theoretical the big crunch?
 
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AFAIK, there isn't a generally accepted explanation. If you want at least some good discussion on this though, it's gone over in some detail in Roger Penrose's 'The emperors new mind'. I would summarise his view but I'd need to refer to the book and have lent it out currently :(

I remember that it is linked to the theory as to why we have no observed white holes in the universe though (and why it's predicted that there will be none).
 
Well isn't entropy the measure of how much much different states you can have in a system(i.e. the measure of chaos). That is - if I understand the concept correctly(Do I?).
Then it seems logical that at the time of the big bang when the number of particle types and fundamental forces was at its lowest(or so they say) and energy was distributed most evenly in space entropy was also small. And take today(going towards the big crunch can only make it worse) - we probably have as many particles as there are physicists :P
 
Hmm, thanks for the response workmad3 but I've read The Emperor's New Mind (it's sitting right by my keyboard in fact) and I have not been left with the impression that Penrose even addressed the issue. When you get a chance please do refer to the book for me (with a page number), because there is a decent chance that he does answer the question but I just didn't "get it".

Anyway, I have my own answer, and wouldn't mind feedback. It is clear that the order of a point in dimensionless space is infinite, so entropy = zero at the big bang. I have seen some describe the big bang as not only an expansion of mass and energy, but also of spatial dimensions themselves - this would make it meaningless to ask what was "there" before the big bang occurred. However, if these dimensions persisted during a big crunch then it seems to me that entropy would approach infinity because the backdrop is now continuous and possibly infinite (i.e. the point has many/infinite locales).

In other words, entropy of a point in dimensionless space = zero, while entropy of a point in dimensioned space = infinity (or approaches infinity as the dimension grows, if one wants to reject the continuous nature of space)...
 

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