EPR revisited

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter anuttarasammyak
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of the relativity of simultaneity in quantum mechanics, particularly in the context of entangled particles and the concept of wave function collapse. Participants explore how measurements made in different inertial frames affect the interpretation of quantum states and the timing of events, raising questions about the compatibility of quantum mechanics with special relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the statement “B has |b>_B" is frame-dependent and not invariant due to the relativity of simultaneity.
  • Others argue that the collapse of the state at B cannot be well-defined without specifying a time and place in a chosen frame, complicating the intuitive understanding of quantum mechanics.
  • A participant mentions that the quantum mechanics framework provides joint probabilities for measurement outcomes, suggesting that the wave function could be thought to collapse either when Alice or Bob makes a measurement.
  • Another participant challenges the idea of wave function collapse as a physical event, stating that any physical event must be invariant, which is not the case here.
  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the compatibility of "ordinary" quantum mechanics with special relativity, noting that Schrödinger's equation does not align with relativistic principles.
  • Another participant confirms that for relativistically correct quantum mechanics, quantum field theory is necessary, which does not involve the collapse postulate.
  • A suggestion is made for a compromise where observers in different frames could agree on a common time reading based on the earliest possible clock reading at B, acknowledging the uncertainty of measurements during a specific interval.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the interpretation of quantum mechanics in relation to relativity. There is no consensus on the nature of wave function collapse or the implications of measurements in different inertial frames.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of events in spacetime and the unresolved nature of the collapse of the wave function in a relativistic framework. The discussion highlights the complexities of reconciling quantum mechanics with special relativity.

  • #31
anuttarasammyak said:
Observers in different inertial frames who were making observations in the vicinity of measurement at A hold a meeting and present their respective viewpoints. It turns out that each of them is making a rational judgment. As a conclusion of the meeting, they adopt the earliest possible reading of B’s clock, T−L/c where L is distanbe between A and B, as the common consensus. This is because B’s behavior corresponding to clock readings between T−L/c and T+L/c is unknown, and measurement at B may occur during this interval. The only choice consistent with this possibility is the earliest time, T−L/c.
Here, I assume that all inertial frames agree that the collapse occurs when the reading of clock B is the smallest, namely at T−L/c.
This is consistent with the viewpoint of each inertial frame in the sense that, in every frame, B is in the collapsed state only afterward (although the observation itself is performed at A).

Next, let us consider the situation from B toward A.
If we take the collapsed state of B as the starting point, then, due to the relativity of simultaneity, in some inertial frames the state of A appears to have collapsed at a time earlier than the observation. The earliest such time is when the reading of clock A is T−2L/c. Let us again assume that this is accepted by all inertial frames as well.

If we continue this kind of reasoning back and forth between A and B, tracing further and further into the past, we arrive at the conclusion that, ever since the moment when A and B were at the same location for the purpose of generating quantum entanglement, the states of A and B had in fact already collapsed.
What was regarded as an entangled state up until the observation by A is, after the observation, reinterpreted as having been a collapsed state extending retroactively into the past, back to the time of entanglement generation.
In this way, it seems that there is no longer any need to worry about spooky long-distance correlations.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
anuttarasammyak said:
If we continue this kind of reasoning
We can't because it's giving you contradictions. First you assume the collapse takes place at a certain event on B's worldline; then you assume that the collapse takes place at a certain event on A's worldline; and then you conclude that the collapse takes place at a different event on B's worldline. What that tells you is that "this kind of reasoning" is not valid. As I already pointed out to you in post #14.
 
  • #33
anuttarasammyak said:
What was regarded as an entangled state up until the observation by A is, after the observation, reinterpreted as having been a collapsed state extending retroactively into the past, back to the time of entanglement generation.
The collapsed state is a mixture of ##|+-\rangle## and ##|-+\rangle##; the uncollapsed state is a pure superposition of the two. These are different states that behave differently in experiments designed to expose the difference. What does it mean to “interpret” one as the other?
 
  • #34
Nugatory said:
The collapsed state is a mixture of ##|+-\rangle## and ##|-+\rangle##
I would say that the collapsed state is either ##\ket{+-}## or ##\ket{- +}##, whichever corresponds to the measured results. We don't use the mixture state to predict further measurements; we use whichever of the two kets corresponds to the result that was measured. That's what the collapse postulate says to do.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
854
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 67 ·
3
Replies
67
Views
4K