Equilibrium state of sourceless EM field

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the equilibrium state of a sourceless electromagnetic (EM) field within a perfectly conducting box, initiated by a localized magnetic field at time t=0. Participants explore the implications of this scenario, including the nature of the magnetic field, the conditions under which it exists, and its evolution over time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Robert introduces the problem of a localized, sourceless magnetic field in a conducting box and asks about its equilibrium state.
  • Some participants question the existence of a "sourceless" magnetic field, noting the requirement that the divergence of the magnetic field must be zero.
  • Others clarify that the initial condition of the magnetic field is set without charges or currents, leading to confusion about its non-zero state.
  • A participant suggests modifying the scenario to include a small loop with a constant current before t=0, which creates a dipole magnetic field that is switched off at t=0.
  • Another participant proposes that this modification allows for a valid initial state, although the change in current makes the initial field non-static.
  • Discussion includes the application of Jefimenko’s equations to analyze the system's behavior over time, dividing the analysis into two time segments based on retarded time.
  • It is proposed that the stationary magnetic field will disappear or radiate, leading to an equilibrium state characterized by standing electromagnetic waves.
  • Concerns are raised about the complexity of the field due to reflections within the conductive box, complicating the analysis compared to free space.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the initial conditions and the nature of the sourceless magnetic field. There is no consensus on the equilibrium state or the implications of the proposed modifications.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the assumptions made about the initial conditions, the nature of the magnetic field, and the effects of reflections within the conducting box, which remain unresolved.

Creedence
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TL;DR
What happends to a sourceless magnetic field in a confined space?
Given a box made of perfectly conducting material. At some part of it at t=0 there is a localized magnetic field. It's sourceless and there aren't any dissipation. After t=0 it starts to spread and fill the box. What is the equilibrium state?

Thanks for the answer(s),
Robert
 
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How do you get a "sourceless" magnetic field? \nabla \cdot B = 0.
 
Vanadium 50 said:
How do you get a "sourceless" magnetic field? \nabla \cdot B = 0.
No charges, no currents, and at t=0 no varying electric field.
 
Creedence said:
No charges, no currents, and at t=0 no varying electric field.

So why is your field non-zero?
 
Vanadium 50 said:
So why is your field non-zero?
Because I put it there as an initial condition and I'm interested in the system's time evolution.
 
Then this whole thread is "what do the laws of physics say when I violate the laws of physics".
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Then this whole thread is "what do the laws of physics say when I violate the laws of physics".
After I violated it. And because at t=0 the system is in a valid state, this question makes sense.
 
Last edited:
Creedence said:
And because at t=0 the system is in a valid state
I don’t think that it is a valid state. How about this modification:

For ##t < 0## there is a small loop at the origin with a constant current which sets up a steady dipole magnetic field. At ##t>0## the current is 0. So there is a source, but it is switched off at ##t=0##
 
Dale said:
I don’t think that it is a valid state. How about this modification:

For ##t < 0## there is a small loop at the origin with a constant current which sets up a steady dipole magnetic field. At ##t>0## the current is 0. So there is a source, but it is switched off at ##t=0##
The current change makes the initial field non-static. But I think its effect can be neglected. I'm only interested in the future of the built-up magnetic field.
Thanks, that is a good idea.
 
  • #10
Creedence said:
The current change makes the initial field non-static. But I think its effect can be neglected. I'm only interested in the future of the built-up magnetic field.
Thanks, that is a good idea.
So this is then fairly easy to analyze using Jefimenko’s equations. At each point you can divide time into two pieces: ##t>t_r## and ##t<t_r## where ##t_r=(\sqrt{x^2+y^2+z^2})/c## is the retarded time. Before ##t_r## the magnetic field will be the standard dipole field. After ##t_r## it will be 0. At ##t_r## there will be an impulsive E field which will satisfy Maxwell’s equations between the two conditions.
 
  • #11
Dale said:
So this is then fairly easy to analyze using Jefimenko’s equations. At each point you can divide time into two pieces: ##t>t_r## and ##t<t_r## where ##t_r=(\sqrt{x^2+y^2+z^2})/c## is the retarded time. Before ##t_r## the magnetic field will be the standard dipole field. After ##t_r## it will be 0. At ##t_r## there will be an impulsive E field which will satisfy Maxwell’s equations between the two conditions.
So the stationary magnetic field disappears (or radiates into the other parts of the box). The equilibrium state will be the sum of standing electromagnetic waves. And the amplitude of these waves are given by the Fourier series of B(t=0).
Is it OK?

I didn't count on the possible non-ergodicity of the system, so I assume it will reach a stationary state in t→∞ .
 
  • #12
Oh, I forgot about the box. Since it is conductive you will get reflections. The field will be very complicated. I was just thinking of free space except for the small loop at the origin. That gives the simple fields I described above.
 

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