Error in Lorentz Invariant Integration

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the integration of Lorentz 4-vector fields over a spacelike hypersurface in Minkowski spacetime, specifically addressing the construction and interpretation of the quantity \( Q = \int_{\Sigma} dS_{\mu} j^{\mu} \). Participants explore the implications of using \( d^3x \) in this context and the conditions under which \( dS_{\mu} \) can be considered a Lorentz vector.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asserts that \( dS_{\mu} \) equals \( n_{\mu} d^3x \) only in a specific frame where the spatial coordinates align with the surface.
  • Another elaborates that if the spatial coordinates do not correspond to a surface of simultaneity, an additional factor must be considered to maintain invariance.
  • A participant provides an example using a parametrized surface to illustrate how the components of \( dS_{\mu} \) differ from a simple product of a unit vector and \( d^3x \).
  • There is a suggestion that using \( d^3q \) instead of \( d^3x \) clarifies the integration over the hypersurface, emphasizing the induced metric's role.
  • One participant argues that the volume form on Minkowski space is more relevant than the induced metric for defining the integration quantity.
  • A later reply expresses an appreciation for coordinate-free notation, indicating potential confusion arising from coordinate-dependent expressions.
  • Another participant questions the specific components of \( n_{\mu} \) when coordinates are within the surface, leading to a realization about the nature of unit vectors orthogonal to the hypersurface.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriate notation and interpretation of integration over the hypersurface, with no consensus reached on the best approach or the implications of the various formulations discussed.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific coordinate choices and the potential for misinterpretation when applying 4-dimensional quantities to 3-dimensional surfaces.

Demystifier
Science Advisor
Insights Author
Messages
14,713
Reaction score
7,307
Let ##j^{\mu}(x)## be a Lorentz 4-vector field in Minkowski spacetime and let ##\Sigma## be a 3-dimensional spacelike hypersurface with constant time of some Lorentz frame. From those I can construct the quantity
$$Q=\int_{\Sigma} dS_{\mu}j^{\mu}$$
where
$$dS_{\mu}=d^3x n_{\mu}$$
and ##n_{\mu}## is the unit timelike vector normal to ##\Sigma##. The quantity ##Q## is a Lorentz scalar. Since ##j^{\mu}## is a Lorentz vector, it follows that ##dS_{\mu}## must also be a Lorentz vector. But ##n_{\mu}## is also a Lorentz vector, so ##dS_{\mu}## can be a Lorentz vector only if ##d^3x## is a Lorentz scalar. Yet, ##d^3x## is not a Lorentz scalar, leading to a contradiction.

Where is the error?

There is a similar "paradox" with 4-momentum defined as
$$P^{\nu}=\int_{\Sigma} dS_{\mu}T^{\mu\nu}$$
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Demystifier said:
Where is the error?

##dS_\mu## is equal to ##n_\mu d^3x## only if ##n_\mu = (1,0,0,0)##, i.e., in the frame where your chosen spatial coordinates are within the surface.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71 and Demystifier
To elaborate on that. If you pick the spatial coordinates of the surface to be coordinates in a frame where ##S## is not a surface of simultaneity, you will get an additional factor that takes care of your invariance. In general, using parameters ##\xi^1##, ##\xi^2## and ##\xi^3## for the surface, we have
$$
dS_\mu = \varepsilon_{\mu\nu\sigma\rho} \frac{\partial x^\nu}{\partial \xi^1}\frac{\partial x^\sigma}{\partial \xi^2}\frac{\partial x^\rho}{\partial \xi^3} d^3\xi.
$$
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71 and Demystifier
As an example, take the surface ##t = vx## parametrised with the coordinates ##x##, ##y## and ##z##. This would lead to ##\partial t/\partial x = v## and therefore
$$
dS_0 = \varepsilon_{0123} d^3x = d^3x, \quad dS_1 = \varepsilon_{1023} \frac{\partial t}{\partial x} d^3x = -v\, d^3x
$$
with the other elements being equal to zero. It should be clear that this is not a unit vector multiplied by ##d^3x##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Demystifier
Orodruin said:
##dS_\mu## is equal to ##n_\mu d^3x## only if ##n_\mu = (1,0,0,0)##, i.e., in the frame where your chosen spatial coordinates are within the surface.
Exactly! For that reason, if ##x^{\mu}## is the spacetime coordinate, it is very misleading to write ##d^3x## for integration over ##\Sigma##. Instead, one should write ##d^3q##, where ##q^i## are coordinates on the hypersurface with induced metric
$$\gamma_{ij}=\frac{\partial x^{\mu}}{\partial q^i} \frac{\partial x^{\nu}}{\partial q^j} g_ {\mu\nu}$$
With such notation, it is more clear that one should not attempt to make a Lorentz transformation of ##q^i##.
 
Demystifier said:
Exactly! For that reason, if ##x^{\mu}## is the spacetime coordinate, it is very misleading to write ##d^3x## for integration over ##\Sigma##. Instead, one should write ##d^3q##, where ##q^i## are coordinates on the hypersurface

Yes, I would agree with this. But many physicists are notoriously sloppy with notation. I try to write ##dS_\mu## in most cases.

Demystifier said:
with induced metric
$$\gamma_{ij}=\frac{\partial x^{\mu}}{\partial q^i} \frac{\partial x^{\nu}}{\partial q^j} g_ {\mu\nu}$$
With such notation, it is more clear that one should not attempt to make a Lorentz transformation of ##q^i##.

You actually never need to refer to the induced metric. What you need is the volume form ##\eta## on Minkowski space (which does depend on the metric) and the 3-form to integrate over the surface is ##i_j\eta##. Your defined quantity becomes
$$
Q = \int_\Sigma i_j \eta
$$
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Demystifier
I am starting to appreciate the coordinate free notation that mathematicians prefer. With coordinates and indices one can easily be mislead in an attempt to use in 3-space the quantities originally defined in 4-space.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: martinbn
Orodruin said:
##dS_\mu## is equal to ##n_\mu d^{3}x## only if ##n_\mu = (1,0,0,0)##, i.e., in the frame where your chosen spatial coordinates are within the surface
Why ##n_\mu## has components ##(1,0,0,0)## when the coordinates are within the surface? Would this mean that at the surface both ##x,y## and ##z## are equal to zero? Why?

EDIT: I just realized that that is because ##n_\mu## is a unit vector, orthogonal to the hyper-surface of constant time.
 

Similar threads

Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
6K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K