Exit exam news: school board defies state

[Pengwuino]

They seem to be doing it on a district by district basis. Our district allowed the idiots to walk because their sense of self-satisfaction is worth more then their education.

 

[Moonbear]

Bulls***. I took the harder prototype test and IT IS THAT EASY. It was a joke. What i find even more annoying was that our class had to take the test as a complete surprise and we still rocked its world, no "teaching the test" crap either.

I have a feeling the activists say its too hard because they probably couldn't pass it themselves...

Yeah, if Pengwuino could pass the grammar part of the test, it must be pretty easy. :tongue:

People wouldn't be pushing to require these tests if the schools were uniformly graduating students with the basic skills one expects of a high school graduate. That's all these tests are really intended to do is find out if students actually are learning what the school says they learned. If a school has students with 4.0 averages who are failing a basic skills test, and there isn't some extraordinary circumstance to explain it (like the student was in the ER the night before and on pain medication for a broken leg during the exam) then someone needs to look into those schools and why they've cheated those students of a proper education and given them the false impression they are succeeding. And, if the students just aren't making the effort to learn in spite of quality lessons and teachers, then it prevents them from handing them diplomas they didn't earn; that really doesn't do anyone any favors.

 

[Pengwuino]

(like the student was in the ER the night before and on pain medication for a broken leg during the exam)

Which was highly probable at my high school for some reason! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I don't know why but it seemed like some girl had broken her leg every other week or so...

 

[Math Is Hard]

What's a passing score on this exit exam...typically ?

I believe they only need to correctly answer 60 percent of the English-language questions and 55 percent of the math questions in order to pass.

http://www.almanacnews.com/morgue/2004/2004_08_25.exit.shtml

 

[0TheSwerve0]

If a school has students with 4.0 averages who are failing a basic skills test, and there isn't some extraordinary circumstance to explain it (like the student was in the ER the night before and on pain medication for a broken leg during the exam) then someone needs to look into those schools and why they've cheated those students of a proper education and given them the false impression they are succeeding.

That's what some are saying:

Siegel and his supporters believe that inadequate funding and a lack of quality teachers puts Oakland students at a disadvantage for passing the exam, which the state requires to get a diploma.

"It doesn't matter how many times we can take the test and how many years we have to prepare when our schools have been messed up since we were in kindergarten," said Leslie Santiago, a 17-year-old junior at MetWest High School in Oakland and one of about 25 students who attended the board meeting to support Siegel's resolution.

Here's a clue

Because the bankrupt district is under state control...

Coincidentally, I just wrote a response paper to Savage Inequalities, also about lack of equal opportunity in education (In East St. Louis and NYC). Those students had it worse off though, sewage flowing into their building and chemical spills in the city! My teacher was saying other states are appalled at the conditions of California schools, so maybe this is just another example.

 

[Pengwuino]

Wow, smart enough to know that you're entire education has been inadaquit since kindergarten yet not smart enough to know basic algebra...

 

[Gokul43201]

I believe they only need to correctly answer 60 percent of the English-language questions and 55 percent of the math questions in order to pass.

I'd really like to see one of these people that are suing against the exam on grounds that it's unfairly hard. I'd commend them on having the guts to show their faces in public.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

And what's this BS about kids having 4.0's and not being able to pass the exit exam? SOMETHINGS WRONG THERE! I don't know what's worse, that someone could be so stupid as to not pass the exit exam or that the system is so corrupt that someone could be so stupid as to not pass the exit exam yet still get a 4.0.

Where did it say anything about 4.0's?

 

[Pengwuino]

Where did it say anything about 4.0's?

Oh i just meant in the media in general, not that particular article.

 

[Moonbear]

Where did it say anything about 4.0's?

Pengwuino was just helping to demonstrate the level of reading comprehension one can have and still pass the exam. (Sorry, Pengwuino, you're just too easy to pick on today. )

 

[Pengwuino]

Pengwuino was just helping to demonstrate the level of reading comprehension one can have and still pass the exam. (Sorry, Pengwuino, you're just too easy to pick on today. )

And today I am super depressed. I'm going to go kill myself now. thanks a lot!

Oh wait i have a job interview monday...

 

[Moonbear]

And today I am super depressed. I'm going to go kill myself now. thanks a lot!

Awww...sorry. Have another fish. It's only a day old (I got extra yesterday).

Oh wait i have a job interview monday...

Good luck!

 

[Pengwuino]

Good luck!

I have jury duty on the same day. I just realized this about 2 hours ago.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Where did it say anything about 4.0's?

It happens, though.

http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/14191213p-15018112c.html

The legal challenge to the California High School Exit Exam filed last week was almost as predictable as the rising of the sun. There was no way the state was going to deny diplomas to thousands of otherwise qualified students without facing a suit. But it was still a shocker.

The suit's named plaintiffs include several Richmond High School seniors. One, Liliana Valenzuela, has a grade point average of 3.84; the suit says she's 12th in a class of 413 students. Another, Laura Echavarria, has a GPA of 4.0.

According to the complaint, both took the English-Langauge Arts part of the test three times and failed it each time. In addition, the plaintiffs include eight or nine at other schools who had high averages and got praise from teachers, but couldn't pass either the English or math part of the test.

 

[Moonbear]

I have jury duty on the same day. I just realized this about 2 hours ago.

As long as they aren't both scheduled for the same time...:uhh:

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Wow, smart enough to know that you're entire education has been inadaquit since kindergarten yet not smart enough to know basic algebra...

Might see them more akin to illiterates than mentally handicapped people. No need to read, all you have to do is look around to compare the conditions of a poor public school versus a rich one.

 

[Math Is Hard]

I don't know why everyone is so upset. It's not like you need a high school diploma to go to college or anything.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/e...&en=c871f0b01330eca9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

 

[Pengwuino]

Those girls are probably suck ups and cheerleaders

in more way then one

 

[Moonbear]

It happens, though.

http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/14191213p-15018112c.html

They shouldn't be suing the state for the exit exam, they should be suing the school for giving them unrealistic expectations and inflated grades. There's no reason, whatsoever, that a 4.0 student shouldn't be able to pass an English exam after 3 tries if those questions you showed are representative. I'd be curious if those students took the SAT, and what their verbal scores were on that. If there was a huge discrepancy between the two standardized exams, then I might question the exit exam (i.e., if you can test well on the SAT, but not the exit exam, maybe there is a problem with it), but if they corroborate one another, then it would make it clearer that the school's grading is the problem.

 

[Pengwuino]

Might see them more akin to illiterates than mentally handicapped people. No need to read, all you have to do is look around to compare the conditions of a poor public school versus a rich one.

If you realize you aren't getting a good education.... there's a thing called taking the initiative and self-studying.

 

[Pengwuino]

They shouldn't be suing the state for the exit exam, they should be suing the school for giving them unrealistic expectations and inflated grades. There's no reason, whatsoever, that a 4.0 student shouldn't be able to pass an English exam after 3 tries if those questions you showed are representative. I'd be curious if those students took the SAT, and what their verbal scores were on that. If there was a huge discrepancy between the two standardized exams, then I might question the exit exam (i.e., if you can test well on the SAT, but not the exit exam, maybe there is a problem with it), but if they corroborate one another, then it would make it clearer that the school's grading is the problem.

I've known 4.28 students to get 1200's and 1100's on their SAT's :grumpy:

 

[0TheSwerve0]

It happens, though.

http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/14191213p-15018112c.html

Seems like it could be low local standards of education, not surprising if the ones in charge or teaching received a similar level of education. Or, they simply want more money for the school and need higher grades to receive it. The No Child Left Behind BS perpetuates a vicious cycle. Very American "pick yourself up by your own bootstraps" logic.

 

[Moonbear]

I don't know why everyone is so upset. It's not like you need a high school diploma to go to college or anything.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/e...&en=c871f0b01330eca9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Well, we've already seen the shift of jobs that used to just require a high school diploma starting to require a college degree when the value of a high school diploma weakened and the push to just graduate students who weren't qualified really started up, so if that keeps up, the next generation is going to require a master's degree just to be a secretary. (And yes, some of those jobs didn't even used to require a high school diploma, just an 8th grade education).

Why do people think it's a good thing to just keep pushing students further and further through the educational system without them actually acquiring the knowledge and skills required at each step? If you think education is truly important, which I do, then the answer is to make them go back and learn the foundations correctly before letting them move ahead.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

If you realize you aren't getting a good education.... there's a thing called taking the initiative and self-studying.

True, but part of doing well is having other people expect you to do well. Students perform much better in an environment where they think someone actually cares whether or not they do. Plus, how well you can learn depends on the supplies you have. Besides teachers, you also need textbooks and supplies such as lab kits/tools, computers, etc. I don't know the specifics of the circumstance, but these lacks could explain it. I don't think you should underestimate the impact of teachers either, or peers to learn with. Home conditions and the physical conditions (e.g. temperature) have an impact on your brain.

 

[Gokul43201]

Very American "pick yourself up by your own bootstraps" logic.

Millions of destitute, impoverished kids do this in places where a textbook is a luxury, and America is next only to Paradise.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Those girls are probably suck ups and cheerleaders

in more way then one

wow so catty! I don't think the PF sisterhood has their resident harpy yet.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Millions of destitute, impoverished kids do this in places where a textbook is a luxury, and America is next only to Paradise.

Yes, generally humans will do anything to survive. But look how many die, while others are barely staying alive. Guess we could hold that up as an example of Social Darwinism at work, though.

btw, have you read Savage Inequalities? He makes a pretty strong case for the children living in those cities. East St. Louis had one of the highest homicide rates, chemical spills, fumes and toxic waste polluting air and water, raw sewage flooding the area...in fact, people did comment in the book that it was just like a Third World country (coming from one guy who was from a Third World country). Can you reasonably expect children living in such horrendous conditions to actually perform well academically? I'm not contesting that some can still manage to live, but getting an education would be asking too much. The superintendent even says in the book that, "There is no natural way East St. Louis can bring itself out of this situation," referring to the educational problems. Is this a value we truly want to hold? Is it fair?

 

[Pengwuino]

True, but part of doing well is having other people expect you to do well. Students perform much better in an environment where they think someone actually cares whether or not they do. Plus, how well you can learn depends on the supplies you have. Besides teachers, you also need textbooks and supplies such as lab kits/tools, computers, etc. I don't know the specifics of the circumstance, but these lacks could explain it. I don't think you should underestimate the impact of teachers either, or peers to learn with. Home conditions and the physical conditions (e.g. temperature) have an impact on your brain.

Whoa... temperature? Is it only hot in poor schools? Besides, the only thing tested is math and english skills (which is strange in of itself...), you don't need lab kits and computers for that. Teachers are also pretty much luck of the draw when you go to less then great school. Our school got a great deal of funding and most of the teachers still sucked

 

[Moonbear]

Teachers are also pretty much luck of the draw when you go to less then great school. Our school got a great deal of funding and most of the teachers still sucked

And perhaps those who are able to teach themselves ARE the ones who are already passing the exam. Not every student is capable of self-study, many do need the assistance of a teacher to guide them through learning. It doesn't mean they aren't capable of learning, but that they do need a teacher to help them do it. If every kid was able to just teach themselves, why would we need schools or teachers at all?

 

[Gokul43201]

btw, have you read Savage Inequalities? He makes a pretty strong case for the children living in those cities. East St. Louis had one of the highest homicide rates, chemical spills, fumes and toxic waste polluting air and water, raw sewage flooding the area...in fact, people did comment in the book that it was just like a Third World country (coming from one guy who was from a Third World country).

No, I haven't read it. Maybe there is a case to be made for the rare exception. I still find it hard to believe.

Can you reasonably expect children living in such horrendous conditions to actually perform well academically?

We're not talking about performing well academically. We are talking about scoring a paltry 55-60% on a test that can, IMO be passed by someone who didn't attend a single day of school beyond the 8th grade. We're also talking about a document (the diploma) that is supposed to communicate something. What does a diploma from one of the above described schools actually say?

 

[Pengwuino]

I really do wonder how many kids are incapable of self study. My nephew and step-nephew go to a poorish school, party all the time, don't even bother studying!, and still both passed the first time on the dumbed down test.

 

[Pengwuino]

We're not talking about performing well academically. We are talking about scoring a paltry 55-60% on a test that can, IMO be passed by someone who didn't attend a single day of school beyond the 8th grade. We're also talking about a document (the diploma) that is supposed to communicate something. What does a diploma from one of the above described schools actually say?

Yah and i think a lot of people forget that! You can say all you want about the conditions of schools and all that... but the solution isn't to lie to the world and tell people that these people have skills that they don't actually have. It's not like we're denying these kids some constitutional right. Maybe they can create a new category... something like that "certificate of completion". People can know that this person doesn't actually have the skills to pass high school but was able to sit in a seat for 4 years adn the market can use them as they like.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Whoa... temperature? Is it only hot in poor schools? Besides, the only thing tested is math and english skills (which is strange in of itself...), you don't need lab kits and computers for that. Teachers are also pretty much luck of the draw when you go to less then great school. Our school got a great deal of funding and most of the teachers still sucked

Apparently, the heating and air conditioning was out of whack at some of the schools. It would either be sweltering or freezing...hardly conducive to learning. I still think you need teachers to learn math and english. I believe the children in the example I gave from the book did not have textbooks, so they couldn't teach themselves. The kids at the Oakland school probably could, but there are other things that hamper and discourage children's ability and will to learn. Other opportunities might seem more attractive if they're convinced they can't succeed because they think they're unintelligent (several ways that could happen beyond the fact that they are). We don't really know what's going on at the school, but I think it's more complicated than students just being lazy and stupid.

 

[franznietzsche]

Apparently, the heating and air conditioning was out of whack at some of the schools. It would either be sweltering or freezing...hardly conducive to learning. I still think you need teachers to learn math and english. I believe the children in the example I gave from the book did not have textbooks, so they couldn't teach themselves. The kids at the Oakland school probably could, but there are other things that hamper and discourage children's ability and will to learn. Other opportunities might seem more attractive if they're convinced they can't succeed because they think they're unintelligent (several ways that could happen beyond the fact that they are). We don't really know what's going on at the school, but I think it's more complicated than students just being lazy and stupid.

It doesn't matter why they couldn't pass the test as far as the actual reception of a diploma is concerned. If you aren't able to demonstrate a certain level of competency, then too bad, you don't get a diploma. You are not garaunteed one by right. Go back until you manage to demonstrate competency. Period.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

No, I haven't read it. Maybe there is a case to be made for the rare exception. I still find it hard to believe.

We're not talking about performing well academically. We are talking about scoring a paltry 55-60% on a test that can, IMO be passed by someone who didn't attend a single day of school beyond the 8th grade. We're also talking about a document (the diploma) that is supposed to communicate something. What does a diploma from one of the above described schools actually say?

I don't think that situation is as rare as you say. Like I said to Pengwuino about the Oakland school though, we aren't in their situation or even that familiar with it so we can't say for sure what is going on. The examples in the book are clearer

A 16-year old student in the South Bronx tells me that he went to English class for two months in the fall of 1989 before the school supplied him with a textbook. He spent the entire year wihou a science text...In May of 1990 he is facing final exams, but, because the school requires students to pass in their textbooks one week prior to the end of the semester, he is forced to study without math and English texts. He wants to go to college and he knows that math and English are important, but he's feeling overwhelmed, especially in math. He asked his teacher if he could come in for extra help, but she informed him that she didn't have the time...Sitting in his kitchen, I attempt to help him with his math and English. In math, according to a practice test he has been given, he is asked to solve the following equation: "2x - 2 = 14. What is x?" He finds this baffling. In English, he is told he'll have to know the parts of speech. In the sentence "Jack walkds to the store," he is unable to identify the verb...In the fall of the year, he phones me at home. "There are 42 students in my science class, 40 in my English class-45 in my home room. When all the kids show up, five of us have to stand in the back."

Overcrowding is probably more common elsewhere than the other physical conditions of the school, but it still presents a block to learning. As you point out, what does a diploma from such a school say? Not much, and a lot of children drop out because of it. Here's the reason female students that are either pregnant or have had babies give for skipping and having babies, "Well, there's no reason not to have a baby. There's no much for me in public school." The teacher comments, "The truth is, that's a pretty honest answer. A diploma from a ghetto high school doesn't count for much in the United States today...Very little education in the school would be considered academic in the suburbs. Maybe 10 to 15 percent of students are in truly academic programs. Of the 55 percent who graduate, 20 percent may go to four-year colleges..."

What's more important, that we maintain intense individualism, or that we have a majority of people well-educated? I don't think this is a false dichotomy in our current society and situation.