Exit exam news: school board defies state

[0TheSwerve0]

Those girls are probably suck ups and cheerleaders

in more way then one

wow so catty! I don't think the PF sisterhood has their resident harpy yet.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Millions of destitute, impoverished kids do this in places where a textbook is a luxury, and America is next only to Paradise.

Yes, generally humans will do anything to survive. But look how many die, while others are barely staying alive. Guess we could hold that up as an example of Social Darwinism at work, though.

btw, have you read Savage Inequalities? He makes a pretty strong case for the children living in those cities. East St. Louis had one of the highest homicide rates, chemical spills, fumes and toxic waste polluting air and water, raw sewage flooding the area...in fact, people did comment in the book that it was just like a Third World country (coming from one guy who was from a Third World country). Can you reasonably expect children living in such horrendous conditions to actually perform well academically? I'm not contesting that some can still manage to live, but getting an education would be asking too much. The superintendent even says in the book that, "There is no natural way East St. Louis can bring itself out of this situation," referring to the educational problems. Is this a value we truly want to hold? Is it fair?

 

[Pengwuino]

True, but part of doing well is having other people expect you to do well. Students perform much better in an environment where they think someone actually cares whether or not they do. Plus, how well you can learn depends on the supplies you have. Besides teachers, you also need textbooks and supplies such as lab kits/tools, computers, etc. I don't know the specifics of the circumstance, but these lacks could explain it. I don't think you should underestimate the impact of teachers either, or peers to learn with. Home conditions and the physical conditions (e.g. temperature) have an impact on your brain.

Whoa... temperature? Is it only hot in poor schools? Besides, the only thing tested is math and english skills (which is strange in of itself...), you don't need lab kits and computers for that. Teachers are also pretty much luck of the draw when you go to less then great school. Our school got a great deal of funding and most of the teachers still sucked

 

[Moonbear]

Teachers are also pretty much luck of the draw when you go to less then great school. Our school got a great deal of funding and most of the teachers still sucked

And perhaps those who are able to teach themselves ARE the ones who are already passing the exam. Not every student is capable of self-study, many do need the assistance of a teacher to guide them through learning. It doesn't mean they aren't capable of learning, but that they do need a teacher to help them do it. If every kid was able to just teach themselves, why would we need schools or teachers at all?

 

[Gokul43201]

btw, have you read Savage Inequalities? He makes a pretty strong case for the children living in those cities. East St. Louis had one of the highest homicide rates, chemical spills, fumes and toxic waste polluting air and water, raw sewage flooding the area...in fact, people did comment in the book that it was just like a Third World country (coming from one guy who was from a Third World country).

No, I haven't read it. Maybe there is a case to be made for the rare exception. I still find it hard to believe.

Can you reasonably expect children living in such horrendous conditions to actually perform well academically?

We're not talking about performing well academically. We are talking about scoring a paltry 55-60% on a test that can, IMO be passed by someone who didn't attend a single day of school beyond the 8th grade. We're also talking about a document (the diploma) that is supposed to communicate something. What does a diploma from one of the above described schools actually say?

 

[Pengwuino]

I really do wonder how many kids are incapable of self study. My nephew and step-nephew go to a poorish school, party all the time, don't even bother studying!, and still both passed the first time on the dumbed down test.

 

[Pengwuino]

We're not talking about performing well academically. We are talking about scoring a paltry 55-60% on a test that can, IMO be passed by someone who didn't attend a single day of school beyond the 8th grade. We're also talking about a document (the diploma) that is supposed to communicate something. What does a diploma from one of the above described schools actually say?

Yah and i think a lot of people forget that! You can say all you want about the conditions of schools and all that... but the solution isn't to lie to the world and tell people that these people have skills that they don't actually have. It's not like we're denying these kids some constitutional right. Maybe they can create a new category... something like that "certificate of completion". People can know that this person doesn't actually have the skills to pass high school but was able to sit in a seat for 4 years adn the market can use them as they like.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Whoa... temperature? Is it only hot in poor schools? Besides, the only thing tested is math and english skills (which is strange in of itself...), you don't need lab kits and computers for that. Teachers are also pretty much luck of the draw when you go to less then great school. Our school got a great deal of funding and most of the teachers still sucked

Apparently, the heating and air conditioning was out of whack at some of the schools. It would either be sweltering or freezing...hardly conducive to learning. I still think you need teachers to learn math and english. I believe the children in the example I gave from the book did not have textbooks, so they couldn't teach themselves. The kids at the Oakland school probably could, but there are other things that hamper and discourage children's ability and will to learn. Other opportunities might seem more attractive if they're convinced they can't succeed because they think they're unintelligent (several ways that could happen beyond the fact that they are). We don't really know what's going on at the school, but I think it's more complicated than students just being lazy and stupid.

 

[franznietzsche]

Apparently, the heating and air conditioning was out of whack at some of the schools. It would either be sweltering or freezing...hardly conducive to learning. I still think you need teachers to learn math and english. I believe the children in the example I gave from the book did not have textbooks, so they couldn't teach themselves. The kids at the Oakland school probably could, but there are other things that hamper and discourage children's ability and will to learn. Other opportunities might seem more attractive if they're convinced they can't succeed because they think they're unintelligent (several ways that could happen beyond the fact that they are). We don't really know what's going on at the school, but I think it's more complicated than students just being lazy and stupid.

It doesn't matter why they couldn't pass the test as far as the actual reception of a diploma is concerned. If you aren't able to demonstrate a certain level of competency, then too bad, you don't get a diploma. You are not garaunteed one by right. Go back until you manage to demonstrate competency. Period.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

No, I haven't read it. Maybe there is a case to be made for the rare exception. I still find it hard to believe.

We're not talking about performing well academically. We are talking about scoring a paltry 55-60% on a test that can, IMO be passed by someone who didn't attend a single day of school beyond the 8th grade. We're also talking about a document (the diploma) that is supposed to communicate something. What does a diploma from one of the above described schools actually say?

I don't think that situation is as rare as you say. Like I said to Pengwuino about the Oakland school though, we aren't in their situation or even that familiar with it so we can't say for sure what is going on. The examples in the book are clearer

A 16-year old student in the South Bronx tells me that he went to English class for two months in the fall of 1989 before the school supplied him with a textbook. He spent the entire year wihou a science text...In May of 1990 he is facing final exams, but, because the school requires students to pass in their textbooks one week prior to the end of the semester, he is forced to study without math and English texts. He wants to go to college and he knows that math and English are important, but he's feeling overwhelmed, especially in math. He asked his teacher if he could come in for extra help, but she informed him that she didn't have the time...Sitting in his kitchen, I attempt to help him with his math and English. In math, according to a practice test he has been given, he is asked to solve the following equation: "2x - 2 = 14. What is x?" He finds this baffling. In English, he is told he'll have to know the parts of speech. In the sentence "Jack walkds to the store," he is unable to identify the verb...In the fall of the year, he phones me at home. "There are 42 students in my science class, 40 in my English class-45 in my home room. When all the kids show up, five of us have to stand in the back."

Overcrowding is probably more common elsewhere than the other physical conditions of the school, but it still presents a block to learning. As you point out, what does a diploma from such a school say? Not much, and a lot of children drop out because of it. Here's the reason female students that are either pregnant or have had babies give for skipping and having babies, "Well, there's no reason not to have a baby. There's no much for me in public school." The teacher comments, "The truth is, that's a pretty honest answer. A diploma from a ghetto high school doesn't count for much in the United States today...Very little education in the school would be considered academic in the suburbs. Maybe 10 to 15 percent of students are in truly academic programs. Of the 55 percent who graduate, 20 percent may go to four-year colleges..."

What's more important, that we maintain intense individualism, or that we have a majority of people well-educated? I don't think this is a false dichotomy in our current society and situation.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

It doesn't matter why they couldn't pass the test as far as the actual reception of a diploma is concerned. If you aren't able to demonstrate a certain level of competency, then too bad, you don't get a diploma. You are not garaunteed one by right. Go back until you manage to demonstrate competency. Period.

Education isn't something one acquires on their own, they need to be given one. If they don't have the proper tools to learn, what good is sending a child back into the same inadequate system going to do? Why not give them better options instead of condemning them to a hopeless situation? btw, I never said anything about those children being entitled to a diploma, I'm addressing the reasons why they are not able to get one.

 

[Pengwuino]

Education isn't something one acquires on their own, they need to be given one. If they don't have the proper tools to learn, what good is sending a child back into the same inadequate system going to do? Why not give them better options instead of condemning them to a hopeless situation?

How does lying to them give them hope and better options? So they can go off and fail in college where they actually PAY for school? Why not just give them a bachelors too while we're at it? You lie once, why not lie some more.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

What do mean lying to them? I suggested fixing the system, which is what I think is the main problem. An even easier option might be to just offer vocational schools and separate tracks when students reach high school, then we won't waste their time. This is what Japan and Germany does, they seem to be doing ok.

 

[Pengwuino]

Giving them a diploma is a lie. You're saying to them and the rest of the world that they have the skills one learns after 4 years of high school education. They don't have that, thus, a lie.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

You should read my previous posts, I don't think you know what you're talking about (shocker )

 

[Pengwuino]

You should read my previous posts, I don't think you know what you're talking about (shocker )

Well I've been on topic... what have you been doing?

 

[0TheSwerve0]

You and Franz have misconstrued what I'm saying. I've been addressing what you've said - that these students are basically lazy idiots.

I don't find it very incredible. Kids just don't care and if they want to be poor and be targets of politicians pandering to them in the future, i don't give a crap. They think they can make it big as a mechanic or a rap star or basketball player or punk music idiot?. Go ahead... god i hate having to pay for these moron's medical bills.

I find that a poorly thought out explanation, and I've posted as to why I think so.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of adults couldn't pass it in the state, given that 75%(ish) of students failed it the first year, IIRC. Doesn't mean its hard, or that they deserve a diploma anyway. It certainly doesn't speak well of california public schools.

Pretty much what I'm trying to say.

 

[Pengwuino]

I find that a poorly thought out explanation, and I've posted as to why I think so.

Let us see what is more correct. Widely seen "experimental" data from pretty much anyone whos ever been in a public school... or a theoretical, illogical, explanation that attempts to artificially remove as much responsibility from kids as possible without any regard as to how improbable and over-exagerated the situations may be? I find it hard that the state with one of the highest funding levels per student is not going to have the money to make it to the top 40 states school districts.

 

[franznietzsche]

You and Franz have misconstrued what I'm saying. I've been addressing what you've said - that these students are basically lazy idiots.

No, you're saying that the students are the victims of a bad education system.

What you haven't clarified (unless I msised it, which is possible I suppose) is whether you think the students failing to demonstrate competency (regardless of the reason) should be given diploma's anyway.

 

[Pengwuino]

Also, has there been any schools in California where more then 50% of the students can't pass the exit exam?

 

[franznietzsche]

Also, has there been any schools in California where more then 50% of the students can't pass the exit exam?

I thought that the initial failure rate was something like 75%. But I may be completely wrong. I can't recall a source at the moment, maybe I can find something...

 

[Pengwuino]

I thought that the initial failure rate was something like 75%. But I may be completely wrong. I can't recall a source at the moment, maybe I can find something...

got it

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2003033876_webexitexam01.html

10% overall. I need to find particular stats

 

[franznietzsche]

got it

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2003033876_webexitexam01.html

10%

Hmm, well I was way off. I'm trying to recall where I heard that, or if maybe it was in reference to one particular school.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Let us see what is more correct. Widely seen "experimental" data from pretty much anyone whos ever been in a public school... or a theoretical, illogical, explanation that attempts to artificially remove as much responsibility from kids as possible without any regard as to how improbable and over-exagerated the situations may be? I find it hard that the state with one of the highest funding levels per student is not going to have the money to make it to the top 40 states school districts.

So because you've attended public school, you know more than someone who has taught in public schools and visited several across the country? Like I said, we don't know for sure what is going on. You leave no room for any explanation but your own opinion. How is the author's or my explanation illogical? Does money not have an impact on quality of education? And I never said quality of education was everything, though I think it is the main element. As for your last statement, neither LYN nor I can decipher it.

 

[0TheSwerve0]

No, you're saying that the students are the victims of a bad education system.

What you haven't clarified (unless I msised it, which is possible I suppose) is whether you think the students failing to demonstrate competency (regardless of the reason) should be given diploma's anyway.

Yes, I am offering an alternate explanation because I think that you offer an inadequate one. Again, I didn't say this was the only issue. I made no comment as to whether or not these students should get diplomas. I'm trying to show that that question ignores the reason why (the main issue I think) the students aren't qualified to get them. I thought you were being completely unfair, but I guess I did derail the thread. Seems logical comments should be saved for other forums...

 

[Pengwuino]

Whoa, i just saw an article showing the STAR testing results for 05. Asians are the best at the english language. ASIANS outscored white people in the english language testing. So foreigners are the top english scorers yet when it comes to this test, its an excusable problem when spanish speakers can't pass the english exam?

 

[franznietzsche]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/12/11/MN191373.DTL

Reference here saying that in schools with high percentages of uncredentialed teachers, failure rates were as high as 75% on the math portion. May or may not have been what I was thinkg of.

 

[franznietzsche]

Whoa, i just saw an article showing the STAR testing results for 05. Asians are the best at the english language. ASIANS outscored white people in the english language testing. So foreigners are the top english scorers yet when it comes to this test, its an excusable problem when spanish speakers can't pass the english exam?

Asian doesn't mean foreigner. It means ethnically asian. Not the same.

 

[Pengwuino]

So because you've attended public school, you know more than someone who has taught in public schools and visited several across the country? Like I said, we don't know for sure what is going on. You leave no room for any explanation but your own opinion. How is the author's or my explanation illogical? Does money not have an impact on quality of education? And I never said quality of education was everything, though I think it is the main element. As for your last statement, neither LYN nor I can decipher it.

Maybe you didnt pass the reading comprehension test if 2 obvious words being left out threw you so far off track

A visit means nothing, teachers are normally oblivious to what really goes on in high schools as well. They are also quite naive to tell the truth. Kids can BS a teacher like you wouldn't believe! And of course money has an impact on education which raises hte point as to why does a state with soooooooooo much money being pumped into education come in near last place when they test students? And how do people in poor schools pass at all if they are all on fair ground?