Expanding Universe Slowing Down and Then Speeding Up

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the expansion of the universe, particularly focusing on the concepts of acceleration and deceleration in the context of the Big Bang model. Participants explore the implications of these phenomena, including the roles of dark matter and dark energy, and the historical understanding of cosmic expansion.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the universe began as a "big expansion" rather than a "big explosion," emphasizing the concept of inflation as a rapid expansion phase.
  • There is a suggestion that dark matter initially slowed the expansion of the universe, while dark energy later accelerated it, though the definitions and roles of these concepts are debated.
  • One participant questions the interpretation of Hubble's observations, stating that Hubble did not directly observe the acceleration of the universe's expansion but rather the redshift of distant galaxies.
  • Another participant mentions that the expansion of the universe is not a local acceleration and does not require energy in the same way as local motion does, which raises questions about the nature of dark energy.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the distinction between dark matter and gravity, with some participants arguing that dark matter is simply matter that contributes to spacetime curvature.
  • There are multiple interpretations of the relationship between energy, acceleration, and the speed of light in the context of cosmic expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the universe's expansion, the roles of dark matter and dark energy, and the interpretation of Hubble's findings. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives present.

Contextual Notes

Some claims about the nature of dark energy and its effects are not fully defined, and there are unresolved questions regarding the implications of exceeding the speed of light in the context of cosmic expansion.

robdelory
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Hubble observed that not only is the universe expanding but that it is accelerating. With the model of the Big Bang as I understand it, the universe began as a big explosion. That would mean that it expanded at a rate exceeding the speed of light or at least close to it. If that is correct, that means the universe over the course of 15+ Billion years had expanded at a high rate of speed, slowed down and is currently speeding up it's expansion again. Is this a correct way to describe it or has this been explained? If so, how can that be?
 
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robdelory said:
Hubble observed that not only is the universe expanding but that it is accelerating. With the model of the Big Bang as I understand it, the universe began as a big explosion. That would mean that it expanded at a rate exceeding the speed of light or at least close to it. If that is correct, that means the universe over the course of 15+ Billion years had expanded at a high rate of speed, slowed down and is currently speeding up it's expansion again. Is this a correct way to describe it or has this been explained? If so, how can that be?

Well, sort of.

First, it most emphatically did NOT start as a big explosion, it started as a big expansion, not from a single point as an explosion does but from everywhere at once (a bit hard to grasp at first, I know). Yes, there was (not 100% conclusive, but strongly believed to be true) a massive expansion in a tiny amount of time, called "inflation", followed for some 8 or 9 billion years by a more sedate expansion, and then at some point dark energy (whatever that is) which had been around all along but was overcome by gravity started, due to the spreading out of and thus the decreased density of matter, to overcome gravity and the expansion began to accelerate.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

According to measurements, the Universe's expansion rate was decelerating until about 5 billion years ago due to the gravitational attraction of the matter content of the Universe, after which time the expansion began accelerating.

Edit: Is it a coincidence that the transition from decelerating to accelerating occurred about the time the Earth formed (4.5b years ago)?
 
phinds said:
Well, sort of.

First, it most emphatically did NOT start as a big explosion, it started as a big expansion, not from a single point as an explosion does but from everywhere at once (a bit hard to grasp at first, I know). Yes, there was (not 100% conclusive, but strongly believed to be true) a massive expansion in a tiny amount of time, called "inflation", followed for some 8 or 9 billion years by a more sedate expansion, and then at some point dark energy (whatever that is) which had been around all along but was overcome by gravity started, due to the spreading out of and thus the decreased density of matter, to overcome gravity and the expansion began to accelerate.
I think that was dark matter slowed down the expansion at first. then dark energy accelerates the expansion? I didn't study inflammation theory much, but I know the dark matter is gravity, dark energy is anti gravity.
 
sunmaggot said:
I think that was dark matter slowed down the expansion at first. then dark energy accelerates the expansion? I didn't study inflammation theory much, but I know the dark matter is gravity, dark energy is anti gravity.
ALL of the mass of the universe was slowing down the expansion, until the spreading out of all matter allowed DE to overtake it as the main consideration for the expansion.

Dark matter is not "gravity", it's just matter. All matter creates the spacetime curvature that we call gravity.

Dark energy is not exactly what the term "anti-gravity" normally means, although it does have an effect opposite that of gravity so from an English language point of view, that's not a terrible way to describe it.
 
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robdelory said:
Hubble observed that not only is the universe expanding but that it is accelerating. With the model of the Big Bang as I understand it, the universe began as a big explosion. That would mean that it expanded at a rate exceeding the speed of light or at least close to it. If that is correct, that means the universe over the course of 15+ Billion years had expanded at a high rate of speed, slowed down and is currently speeding up it's expansion again. Is this a correct way to describe it or has this been explained? If so, how can that be?
Hubble didn't observe that. The way we find out expansion speed is accelerated is by calculating mass density of the whole universe. And I have also asked about the question of expansion speed exceeding light speed in a talk. The professor (not from my university) said you don't need energy to accelerate something, therefore exceeding light speed is no problem, bla bla bla. I don't understand... dark energy is a kind of energy. What was he even talking about lol.
 
sunmaggot said:
The professor (not from my university) said you don't need energy to accelerate something, therefore exceeding light speed is no problem, bla bla bla. I don't understand... dark energy is a kind of energy. What was he even talking about lol.
The expansion of the universe is not acceleration in a local sense, which DOES require energy, and the expansion is not a local "speed" so is not limited to the speed of light.
 
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phinds said:
The expansion of the universe is not acceleration in a local sense, which DOES require energy, and the expansion is not a local "speed" so is not limited to the speed of light.
wow thanks, this explanation makes more sense!
 
sunmaggot said:
Hubble didn't observe that. The way we find out expansion speed is accelerated is by calculating mass density of the whole universe. And I have also asked about the question of expansion speed exceeding light speed in a talk. The professor (not from my university) said you don't need energy to accelerate something, therefore exceeding light speed is no problem, bla bla bla. I don't understand... dark energy is a kind of energy. What was he even talking about lol.
What do you mean Hubble didn't observe that. He found the red shift in distant galaxies. The farther away, the higher the shift. Again, I'm a novice here, but still...
 
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robdelory said:
What do you mean Hubble didn't observe that. He found the red shift in distant galaxies. The farther away, the higher the shift. Again, I'm a novice here, but still...
he only found out stars farther away from us move away with higher speed, which makes hubble's law: v = Hd, he didn't find out the acceleration.
 
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sunmaggot said:
he only found out stars farther away from us move away with higher speed, which makes hubble's law: v = Hd, he didn't find out the acceleration.
Cool, thanks for the clarification.
 
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