Explaining the Twin Paradox: A Big Problem?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Marilyn67
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Paradox Twin paradox
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the twin paradox in the context of special relativity, specifically addressing the implications of different frames of reference and the effects of time dilation and simultaneity. Participants explore the scenarios involving twins moving apart and the resulting age differences, as well as the concept of rapidity in relation to relativistic speeds.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the age difference in the twin paradox is due to changes in the Lorentz frame of reference, rather than a Galilean frame.
  • Others argue that the twin paradox only arises when the twins reunite to compare their ages, and that if they never meet, the question of which clock is slower does not make sense.
  • A participant proposes a scenario involving a spaceship traveling at relativistic speeds and questions the implications of time dilation as perceived from different frames of reference.
  • There is a discussion about the triangle inequality in Minkowski geometry as a potential explanation for the age difference.
  • Some participants express confusion about whether comparing elapsed times in different frames can break the symmetry of the situation.
  • Concerns are raised about the role of length contraction and how it affects the interpretation of the clocks' readings.
  • One participant suggests that using a third object could clarify the symmetry breaking, while others maintain that only two frames are relevant.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the twin paradox involves complex considerations of relativity, but multiple competing views remain regarding the interpretation of time dilation, symmetry, and the role of different frames of reference. The discussion remains unresolved with respect to the implications of rapidity and the nature of the paradox.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves assumptions about uniform rectilinear motion and the conditions under which the twin paradox is defined. The implications of rapidity and the specific distances and speeds chosen for examples may also influence the interpretations presented.

  • #31
In my opinion, the physics is clearer with more convenient numerical values (like the ones given by @Nugatory)
Nugatory said:
These problems are easier to work with if you choose the speed to be either ##\frac{3}{5}c## or ##\frac{4}{5}c## so that the Lorentz factor comes out a nice round fraction: either ##\frac{5}{4}## or ##\frac{5}{3}##. So let's take the speed to ##\frac{3}{5}c## and the distance traveled to be 15 light-years (it's an example so might as well choose numbers that make the arthmetic easy).

Now the journey will take 25 years according to someone on Earth, and if we use the frame in which the Earth is at rest to assign coordinates to the three relevant events in this example:
Event 1, x=0, t=0: Traveller sets out on journey, both clocks are set to zero
Event 2, x=15,t=25: Traveller arrives at destination
Event 3, x=0, t=25: Clock on Earth reads 25

The arithmetic easier when one works with pythagorean triples (like 3,4,5). This occurs when the doppler factor k=\sqrt{\frac{1+v}{1-v}} is rational.
For v=3/5, we have k=2 and \gamma=(k+k^{-1})/2=5/4.
For v=4/5, we have k=3 and \gamma=5/3.
(Alternatively, using rapidities
k=\exp(\mbox{arctanh}(3/5))=2 and \gamma=\cosh(\mbox{arctanh}(3/5))=5/4.)

For \gamma=10, we have
k=\exp(\mbox{arccosh}(10))=(10+3\sqrt{11})=irrational and
v=\tanh(\mbox{arccosh}(10))=(3\sqrt{11}/10) =0.9949 with help from WolframAlpha.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
Apart from the equations and calculations, a good way to see what is going on is to draw a spacetime diagram.

Here's the latest version of my spacetime diagrammer (time-upwards)
(version 4) https://www.desmos.com/calculator/kq2qnojphq
(version 6) https://www.desmos.com/calculator/sk2zhnmjmm [new]
1606834297130.png


I use a relative-velocity of (3/5)c above (@Nugatory 's suggested velocity), but I invite to you to adjust the velocities.

The key idea is that "space is perpendicular to time",
a shortened slogan for
"an observer's spaceline is perpendicular to her timeline"
where perpendicularity is defined by the tangency to a "circle" centered at the tail of the displacement (at the origin).

The tangent [space]line of the red observer meets the worldline ( [time]line ) of the green observer
at the event marked by the green cross at (x=0.6,t=1). [You may wish to turn on the grid using the Desmos-wrench in the upper-right corner.]
The displacement to the green cross from the origin is 0.8 of the green radial [time]line segment to the hyperbola. (You can measure this ratio of parallel segments using any ruler.)

As expected by symmetry,
the tangent [space]line of the green observer meets the worldline ( [time]line ) of the red observer at the event marked by the red cross at (x=0,t=0.8).
The displacement to the red cross from the origin is 0.8 of the red radial [time]line segment to the hyperbola. (You can measure this ratio of parallel segments using any ruler.)

This ratio 0.8 is (4/5) = 1/(time dilation factor).
Red says the distant green-cross event occurred 1 tick after the origin.
Green says the local green-cross event occurred 0.8 ticks after the origin.
The time-dilation factor according to Red is
\gamma_{red}=\cosh\theta = (adjacent to local)/(hypotenuse to distant) = (1 tick)/(0.8 ticks) = (5/4).

Green says the distant red-cross event occurred 1 tick after the origin.
Red says the local red-cross event occurred 0.8 ticks after the origin.
The time-dilation factor according to Green is
\gamma_{green}=\cosh\theta = (adjacent to local)/(hypotenuse to distant) = (1 tick)/(0.8 ticks) = (5/4).

Adjust the v2-slider to see that this ratio is common to both observers.
(These are similar-triangles where similarity is defined by the "circle".)
Although I limit the range of the velocities to 0.98c,
you can type in 0.995 to override it. [You could also put "\tanh\left(\operatorname{arccosh}\left(10\right)\right) "]
(You might have to zoom out to see the tip of the green-tick.)
(To get more decimal places, open the "time dilation" folder and change the number of digits in round().)

Back to v1=0 and v2=0.6,
you can drag the event on the green worldline to the green-cross event
to determine the event on the red-worldline that green says is simultaneous with the green-cross event.

(To make the arithmetic simpler, you can drag the events controlling the spacelines to 5 ticks.)

You might wish to adjust the E-slider from "1" for Minkowski-spacetime
to "0" for Galilean-spacetime and "-1" for Euclidean space.

You can also adjust both v1 and v2.

Have fun.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Dale and etotheipi
  • #34
Hello,

Once again thank you to all the participants, you helped me to see things more clearly.

@PeroK: your explanations are very clear. I just read Einstein synchronization convention and I understand where my error is coming from.

@A.T. : Ok, I misunderstood you. I understand better why Einstein used the famous wagons with their ends A and B, and respectively A'and B'.

@Halc: Thank you for this quantified demonstration. I haven't checked your calculation yet but I will, and I'm sure it's right. This will allow me to strengthen my understanding.

@robphy: Thank you for your detailed explanations and your patience !
Your software is great !
I'll use it !

Honestly, I must admit that I learn a lot more things here than on the French speaking forums.
I will recommend your site!Marilyn
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: A.T., Halc, Dale and 1 other person

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
4K
  • · Replies 254 ·
9
Replies
254
Views
20K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
5K
  • · Replies 115 ·
4
Replies
115
Views
9K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
2K
  • · Replies 70 ·
3
Replies
70
Views
7K