Exploring Energy Shields in Star Wars Fiction

[dontbearrogant]

So being a Star Wars buff I can't help but wonder if it would be possible to make a similar type of energy shield as per what are mentioned in the vast collection of Star Wars books out there, any thoughts anybody?

 

[Khashishi]

A magnetic field will deflect ions, and can also confine a plasma. In principle, one could set up a plasma shell around a spaceship. How effective it would be at shielding is questionable. If the plasma is dense enough (so that the plasma frequency is higher than the laser frequency), it can reflect lasers. It could probably destroy incoming rockets, if the shell were big and dense enough. Slugs might be harder to stop, but in principle, they could be vaporized and plasmafied if the shield has enough power. Neutron beams can probably penetrate pretty easily.

It seems likely that weapons development will stay a few steps in front of shields..

 

[Drakkith]

I can't say that energy shields are impossible, but I can say that the concept is so far beyond out technical capability that we don't even know how to theoretically make them. Even Khashishi's idea is essentially speculation since there is no known way to confine a plasma using a magnetic field in this manner.

 

[Matterwave]

I can't say that energy shields are impossible, but I can say that the concept is so far beyond out technical capability that we don't even know how to theoretically make them. Even Khashishi's idea is essentially speculation since there is no known way to confine a plasma using a magnetic field in this manner.

I think it would be more accurate to say that we don't know how to create the magnetic fields required that could do the job. We contain plasma all the time inside tokamaks and in our fusion experiments. The problem is, we need a ring of physical super-magnets to create the fields necessary, and even then, there's still a lot of drift and such that are problematic. But confining plasma using magnetic fields is a quite well studied subject in plasma physics.

 

[Drakkith]

I think it would be more accurate to say that we don't know how to create the magnetic fields required that could do the job.

That's pretty much exactly what I was saying. ;)

 

[Matterwave]

Sure, I was just trying to make things a little clearer, because I think an uninformed person might read from your post that plasmas can't be confined by magnetic fields. I'm not saying that's what you said, I'm just trying to make the point more explicit is all. :)

 

[Khashishi]

On the scale of science fiction, I'd say it's very plausible. We'll probably solve all the issues of magnetic confinement before we get to the starship stage. Assuming starships run on fusion power, there will be some energy to power magnetic coils. But weapons will be so powerful that this type of shield might not be useful.

 

[Drakkith]

On the scale of science fiction, I'd say it's very plausible. We'll probably solve all the issues of magnetic confinement before we get to the starship stage.

I have my doubts. The main issue is that current confinement methods rely on magnets that are external to the contained plasma. Energy shields are typically portrayed as being on the outside of a ship, so you'd have to find a way to confine the plasma using magnets that are inside the volume enclosed by the plasma. I don't really expect this to be a possibility since this leads to a magnetic field that would push the plasma away from the ship, not contain it. I'm not saying it's an impossibility to develop shields, but you simply aren't going to do it using traditional magnetic confinement methods.

 

[GTOM]

What if they have an external net of magnets, like an anti torpedo net? (Of course if they hit the net a part of the shield will fail)

 

[Drakkith]

What if they have an external net of magnets, like an anti torpedo net? (Of course if they hit the net a part of the shield will fail)

Then you're containing the plasma within the net of magnets, but you aren't creating a shield, just a big cloud of confined plasma with a ship in the middle. Without some kind of crazy breakthrough in physics, you simply can't create energy/plasma shields.

 

[JasonRoberts]

Without some kind of crazy breakthrough

Not necessarily a breakthrough, but a way to store over time and instantly release large quantities of energy. Like some sort of super-capacitors.

 

[DHF]

As stated Earlier, Weapon's development will likely outpace defense. For example in said scenario with a ship using a plasma shield. Wouldn't said ship still be very vulnerable to an enemy firing fusion warhead and detonating it a few feet from the shield? wouldn't the blast wave penetrate the shield?

 

[Khashishi]

Building an external magnetic field is not a problem at all. A simple dipole field will confine plasma to some extent. The Earth has an external magnetic field which shields us from cosmic rays. There are actually some fusion experiments set up this way (Levitated Dipole Experiment), although work has stalled.

 

[GTOM]

As stated Earlier, Weapon's development will likely outpace defense. For example in said scenario with a ship using a plasma shield. Wouldn't said ship still be very vulnerable to an enemy firing fusion warhead and detonating it a few feet from the shield? wouldn't the blast wave penetrate the shield?

IMHO the best defence against kinetics (nukes, hypervelocity stuff) is point range defence, they can penetrate any shielding, probably one rather want an anti beam weapon shield, above reflective armor.
(As far as i know even in SW, W40k, kinetics are quite able to take out almost anything. The point is that your attack craft have to get them close.)

 

[Matterwave]

I have my doubts. The main issue is that current confinement methods rely on magnets that are external to the contained plasma. Energy shields are typically portrayed as being on the outside of a ship, so you'd have to find a way to confine the plasma using magnets that are inside the volume enclosed by the plasma. I don't really expect this to be a possibility since this leads to a magnetic field that would push the plasma away from the ship, not contain it. I'm not saying it's an impossibility to develop shields, but you simply aren't going to do it using traditional magnetic confinement methods.

Although we might contain plasmas only using external magnets, the Earth contains some plasma in its Van Allen belt, and the Earth's dynamo is well inside its core baby. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Allen_radiation_belt

So I wouldn't say it's all THAT far fetched that we could design something similar to do something with magnetic fields.

 

[Drakkith]

Not necessarily a breakthrough, but a way to store over time and instantly release large quantities of energy. Like some sort of super-capacitors.

But that doesn't help if there's no way to contain the plasma.

Building an external magnetic field is not a problem at all. A simple dipole field will confine plasma to some extent. The Earth has an external magnetic field which shields us from cosmic rays. There are actually some fusion experiments set up this way (Levitated Dipole Experiment), although work has stalled.

Although we might contain plasmas only using external magnets, the Earth contains some plasma in its Van Allen belt, and the Earth's dynamo is well inside its core baby. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Allen_radiation_belt

So I wouldn't say it's all THAT far fetched that we could design something similar to do something with magnetic fields.

Neither of these are confining the plasma in any way like you would need to in order to make a "plasma shield" on the outside of ship.

 

[Matterwave]

Neither of these are confining the plasma in any way like you would need to in order to make a "plasma shield" on the outside of ship.

Why do you say this? One, the magnetic field itself protects our Earth from harmful solar winds, and two, a diffuse plasma is trapped inside the Van-Allan belt. Of course this is not the same as a plasma shield, but it gives credence to the idea that magnetic fields in a dipole configuration can be used to contain plasmas. One MIGHT not necessarily require a solenoidal/toroidal magnetic field.

Of course we are talking about science fiction, so I don't think anyone is saying a "plasma shield" is possible right now with our technology. In fact I think in my earlier post I stated clearly that we don't know how to make such a configuration possible.

 

[Drakkith]

Of course this is not the same as a plasma shield, but it gives credence to the idea that magnetic fields in a dipole configuration can be used to contain plasmas.

I don't see how you're coming to this conclusion. I don't see anything that suggests that plasma can be contained using an internal configuration of magnets. In fact, knowing a little about how magnetic confinement works, I see nothing but the very opposite, that it isn't possible. The protection the magnetic field of the Earth provides is due to the fact that charged particles are forced away from the increasing magnetic field, not towards.

 

[Matterwave]

I don't see how you're coming to this conclusion. I don't see anything that suggests that plasma can be contained using an internal configuration of magnets. In fact, knowing a little about how magnetic confinement works, I see nothing but the very opposite, that it isn't possible. The protection the magnetic field of the Earth provides is due to the fact that charged particles are forced away from the increasing magnetic field, not towards.

The charged particles come from the Sun, and they are trapped within the Van-Allen belts, oscillating between the North and South poles. When the charged particles move to the poles you get the Auroras. They are trapped along the magnetic field lines just as a charged particle inside a tokamak is trapped in a torus, along the field lines. The charged particles spiral long the field lines in partial cyclotronic motion. Certainly there is drift of these particles, and they don't stay trapped perfectly. We also can't trap particles in tokamaks perfectly either. In both cases, particle drift is a big problem. In a tokamak, a poorly contained plasma means having to change your heat shielding.

There's no inherent difference in the principle that charged particles spiral along magnetic field lines (cyclotron motion) between a solenoidal/toroidal field produced by external magnets, and a dipole field produced by an internal dynamo.

 

[Drakkith]

I'm sorry I'm not seeing any connection between particles spiraling around field lines and being able to contain a plasma. In the tokamaks case, the magnets our on the outside and it's still extremely difficult...

 

[Matterwave]

How are charged particles contained inside a tokamak? Hint: they are not kept stationary, since a stationary particle is not affected by a magnetic field.

How are charged particles contained within the Van Allen belts?

 

[GTOM]

Interesting, but i also have doubts. It is different that some charged particles remain near to Earth, and compress the plasma to a necessary density, how can you compress them without exterior force field?

 

[Drakkith]

How are charged particles contained inside a tokamak? Hint: they are not kept stationary, since a stationary particle is not affected by a magnetic field.

Of course. What's you're point?

How are charged particles contained within the Van Allen belts?

I'm not sure what you'd like me to say.

 

[DHF]

Honestly I don't know that said shields will ever be realized because regardless of the mechanics of making it work can be realized, the end result is that it would never be energy efficient. In order to be an effective sheild you would need the energy levels of the shield to overpower whatever the impacting energy of the weapon was. Unless your ship had access to unlimited energy, its hard to see that being effective.

It seems that it would be far more effective to develop a physical defense, a super hard, super absorbent material. Of course said material would likely be very massive but If you are at the point where you are talking about fleets of star ships and ship to ship combat, I am assuming that cheap and efficient methods of lifting cargo into orbit will have been developed.

 

[Matterwave]

Of course. What's you're point?

I'm not sure what you'd like me to say.

-.- The point is, both mechanisms trap charged particles by making them spiral along the field lines. It's a fact that the Van Allan belt has charged particles trapped in it.

Take whatever conclusions you want to make out of that.

 

[Drakkith]

I suppose I just don't see "trapping" particles in this manner as anything close to "confinement" in the sense that the former is a result of a continuous flow of particles from the solar wind into the Earth's magnetic field (along with other mechanisms) while the latter is the applied use of magnetic fields to purposely trap a finite number of particles without having them leak out.

Does that make sense?

 

[Matterwave]

I suppose I just don't see "trapping" particles in this manner as anything close to "confinement" in the sense that the former is a result of a continuous flow of particles from the solar wind into the Earth's magnetic field (along with other mechanisms) while the latter is the applied use of magnetic fields to purposely trap a finite number of particles without having them leak out.

Does that make sense?

Sure, but the solar wind particles are never-the-less trapped inside the Van-Allan belts for some finite period of time. They literally oscillate back and forth between our north and south magnetic poles, by making spirals along the field lines.

Perhaps not all particles are trapped, but some are, and that was my point.

 

[dontbearrogant]

After reading through this thread of replies it seems as though we have three main issues to sort out before we could make an only semi effective plasma shield, 1:A power source strong enough to not only generate the energy needed to create the shield itself but also to contain and compact the field. 2:A large enough fuel source to maintain the field and 3:An efficient way to contain and compact the field to the correct density. It also seems apparent that it would be of very limited effect vs energy weapons and of pretty much no effect vs projectile weapons, the remaining question I have is would it work vs an EMP?

 

[JasonRoberts]

But that doesn't help if there's no way to contain the plasma.

True. So I guess you'll also have to use 2 omnidirectional magnetic fields that would actually hold and send the plasma into any desired position.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

There is no known way of making an energy shield as seen in SF. None. Plasma screens that trap charged particles might be useful for some things but I'm sceptical that they would be effective at even simplistic weapons like kinetic weapons or explosives.

 

[GTOM]

"the remaining question I have is would it work vs an EMP?"

As far as i know, it can also swallow microwaves, somewhere it even mentioned it might be used as antenna.
Otherwise good old fashioned Faraday cages and over voltage protection.

 

[AetherCoreGamer]

Wait, couldn't we just super-quickly-super heat some matter (mercury would be best) and take some magnets to make a wall of plasma that would go directly at the laser/spacedust/whatever and incinerate/obliterate/get rid of it? -αether
Science fiction is there to become science fact
-my dad

 

[Drakkith]

Wait, couldn't we just super-quickly-super heat some matter (mercury would be best) and take some magnets to make a wall of plasma that would go directly at the laser/spacedust/whatever and incinerate/obliterate/get rid of it? -αether

It seems extremely unlikely to me, but even if you could, what benefit is there over simply firing a projectile or laser at the incoming object? The plasma would need to be extraordinarily dense to withstand a kinetic projectile, and would quickly dissipate after launching it into space. There's also the fact that the heat of the plasma is irrelevant here. The relative velocity between a projectile and the plasma is so great that there is essentially no heat transfer from the plasma to the projectile. You might as well be launching plates of lead to absorb the impact.

 

[dragoneyes001]

wouldn't a massive pulse emission solve the need for unlimited power? instead of trying to create a solid constant shield make a super dense rapidly expanding pulse shield. kind of like a cow fence only sends out current in pulses. the plasma will dissipate but creating a way to emit dense wall of it between an incoming threat and your ship would be less energy dependent as would be a static shield.

also why think only plasma are there not other particles which could be emitted an mass which would have an equally destructive encounter with in coming threats?

 

[GTOM]

"kind of like a cow fence only sends out current in pulses."

IMHO that is more like to point range defence. Containing super hot plasma within layers of armor could be like explosive reactive armor.

While i consider reflectivity and scatter an efficient countermeasure vs beam weapons, but i wonder, whether there is anything that could be more efficient? Legend of Galactic Heroes had the idea of liquid armor, held by some kind of force field, unlike solid, it will repair its surface. Carbon nanotubes are super absorbant in many wavelengths, are there any chance for super-reflectivity?
Or probably scatter the beam before it hits the hull, in Starship Operators, they used some kind of forwarded defence plates.

 

[Khatti]

In a space opera I work on starships are surrounded by a nanobot-rich fluid contained in a carbon bag that surrounds most of the ship except for ports to the outside. The idea was that some engineer got the idea that the best way to protect a ship from hard radiation and flying debris in deep space was to do it the way planet Earth does it: by having a deflecting medium between outer space and the ground--namely the atmosphere. The exotic physics used to in the stardrive require the ship to be pulled not pushed, so the drive is in the nose of the ship. The image I have of these ships is they look something like a dirigible with a submarine silhouetted inside the center of the dirigible. The nano-gel also has uses as a deflector shield.

 

[GTOM]

In a space opera I work on starships are surrounded by a nanobot-rich fluid contained in a carbon bag that surrounds most of the ship except for ports to the outside. The idea was that some engineer got the idea that the best way to protect a ship from hard radiation and flying debris in deep space was to do it the way planet Earth does it: by having a deflecting medium between outer space and the ground--namely the atmosphere. The exotic physics used to in the stardrive require the ship to be pulled not pushed, so the drive is in the nose of the ship. The image I have of these ships is they look something like a dirigible with a submarine silhouetted inside the center of the dirigible. The nano-gel also has uses as a deflector shield.

I also had a similar idea, using lots of metallic cells, and magnetic fields to keep them together. If a laser, or smaller slug/shrapnel damages the armor, the magnetic fields could rearrange the cells to prevent drill-through.
Maybe the stuff could be entirely fluid, if really strong fields could prevent vaporization, or held between layers of armor, and the outer layer could be quickly sealed.

Although i think, that only stationary targets have really though defences, ships are only resistant to lasers thanks to reflective armor... and nothing is really resistant against bigger missiles, not to talk about asteroid bombs.

 

[Khatti]

I also had a similar idea, using lots of metallic cells, and magnetic fields to keep them together. If a laser, or smaller slug/shrapnel damages the armor, the magnetic fields could rearrange the cells to prevent drill-through.
Maybe the stuff could be entirely fluid, if really strong fields could prevent vaporization, or held between layers of armor, and the outer layer could be quickly sealed.

The original idea I had was that there would be no carbon skin. The nanoids on the surface of the gel would lock together when they interacted with hard vac and, in essence, became a skin for the ship. I may go back to that. the other thought I had was that this form of nanotechnology might have other applications like asteroid mining. Just plop some of this gel on an asteroid and let the little buggers go to work.

 

[GTOM]

Nano miners, good idea, although i think they would need an energy source nearby also.
Another idea that would be similar to energy shield : some very strong laser/plasma point range defence on stationary targets.
You can attack them with kinetics from an almost unlimited range, but the defence can eat a swarm of kinetics. I thought the ideal way to counter them would be a combo of kinetic attack, and send laser units nearby, taking advantage of horizont (if it is a ground installation) When the defence system fires, laser mirrors and plasma stuff heats up - then they are very vulnerable, and even smaller lasers can damage them.

 

[Khatti]

Although i think, that only stationary targets have really though defences, ships are only resistant to lasers thanks to reflective armor... and nothing is really resistant against bigger missiles, not to talk about asteroid bombs.

Yeah...the only way to deal with anything big is to not be there when it comes through. Either that or deal with it before it arrives on target. Perhaps the best way to deal with attacks in an asteroid belt is to spread your people and resources over many asteroids. One thing you could do with such a defense is create a kill-zone for whoever is coming at you. If you lack the resources for this sort of thing perhaps the best idea is to have only temporary bases, encampments if you like. Something that can be deserted at a moment's notice.

 

[AlephNumbers]

After browsing this thread, it seems that the best way to deal with incoming deathrays/flying potaotes will probably always be to just dodge it.

 

[Khatti]

After browsing this thread, it seems that the best way to deal with incoming deathrays/flying potatoes will probably always be to just dodge it.

Depends on how much of a head start you get on the potato. And, of course, if said death ray moves at the speed of light well...
I'm not sure you're taking this entirely seriously

 

[Nyrath]

The only "energy shields" known to science are electromagnetic and electrostatic fields.
Well, there are gravitational fields but you need black-hole level intensities in order to have any useful effect. Not exactly off-the-shelf technology.

Unfortunately electromagnetic and electrostatic fields have no effect on laser weaponry or non-particle nuclear radiation (x-rays and gamma rays). This includes blasts from nuclear warheads.
Neither do they have any effect on kinetic energy weapons unless your enemy was stupid enough to make the projectile out of ferrous material. In any case, physical armor would be more cost-effective.
They also will have no effect on plasma weapons because there is no such thing as a plasma weapon. At least there are no such weapons that have a range of over a meter or so.

About the only thing electromagnetic or electrostatic fields will help defend against are particle beam weapons and nuclear shaped charges.

 

[GTOM]

Depends on how much of a head start you get on the potato. And, of course, if said death ray moves at the speed of light well...
I'm not sure you're taking this entirely seriously

Well, acceleration also plays a significant role in my setting against missile shrapnels, blinded missiles and coilgun slugs, but big targets has to be resistant to smaller projectiles at least, and fighters has to be laser resistant enough to overload defence in squadrons.

 

[Khatti]

Well, acceleration also plays a significant role in my setting against missile shrapnels, blinded missiles and coilgun slugs, but big targets has to be resistant to smaller projectiles at least, and fighters has to be laser resistant enough to overload defence in squadrons.

Oh yeah, I get.