Fan motor stalling on running winding

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the operational differences between single-phase capacitor start induction motors and fan motors, particularly focusing on the behavior of these motors when the starting capacitor is disconnected. Participants explore the reasons why fan motors stall and hum under certain conditions, while other types of motors continue to run normally.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Shahvir notes that a single-phase capacitor start induction run motor continues to operate after the starting capacitor is disconnected, while a fan motor stalls when this occurs.
  • One participant suggests that fan motors are typically of the Permanent Split Capacitor (PSC) type, where the capacitor remains in the circuit, and mentions specific capacitance ratings and construction differences.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism about design differences between centrifugal clutch motors and fan motors, arguing that both should function similarly at rated speed.
  • A different viewpoint proposes that the clutch in centrifugal motors disconnects the start winding after startup, while in fan motors, the start winding becomes ineffective due to induced back emf at high speeds.
  • One participant challenges the idea that induced back emf would impact a disconnected start winding at full speed, suggesting that the start winding remains connected in some designs.
  • Another participant reiterates the lack of observable design differences between centrifugal clutch motors and fan motors, proposing that subtle differences may exist that are not immediately apparent.
  • A participant references external sources to explain how the capacitor value in PSC motors is chosen to create a sufficient phase shift for developing a rotating magnetic field, indicating that design intricacies contribute to the operational differences.
  • One suggestion is made to test the motor's performance by removing the fan blades to see if it affects operation when only one winding is used.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the design and operational principles of fan motors versus centrifugal clutch motors. No consensus is reached regarding the specific reasons for the observed behavior of fan motors when the starting capacitor is disconnected.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various technical aspects, such as the role of back emf and the design of windings, but do not resolve the underlying assumptions or the specific conditions under which these motors operate differently.

b.shahvir
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TL;DR
Fan motor stalls when start capacitor disconnected at full speed.
Hi Guys,
Single phase capacitor start induction run motor keeps running even after start capacitor is disconnected by centrifugal switch. But in practice, table fan motor stalls and hums when I disconnect starting capacitor when fan motor reaches full speed.
Why one phenomenon works in certain motors but fails in fan motors. Are centrifugal clutch type motors designed differently to keep running normally even after disconnection of starting capacitor at 80% rated speed?

Thanks,
Shahvir
 
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Fan motors are often of the PSC (Permanent Split Capacitor) variety, and in these, the capacitor is always in circuit. Two clues - the capacitance rating will be much lower than a run cap (typically in the 5 uF to 20 uF range), and is of a metallized film construction rather than an electrolytic.
 
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But I don't find any design difference between centrifugal clutch motors and normal fan motors. The latter should function exactly as centrifugal clutch motor at rated speed!
 
I am not sure but, I think there is a difference in the two. In one the clutch disconnects the start winding after start up. In the other the start winding is made ineffective by an induced back emf from the run winding at top rpm.
 
The induced back emf wouldn't affect an already disconnected start winding at full speed.
 
b.shahvir said:
The induced back emf wouldn't affect an already disconnected start winding at full speed.
That is true. I am talking about the one where the start winding is NOT disconnected by a switch.
 
b.shahvir said:
But I don't find any design difference between centrifugal clutch motors and normal fan motors. The latter should function exactly as centrifugal clutch motor at rated speed!

I'd flip this reasoning around and suggest, since as you've observed
  • a PSC motor stalls when the start winding capacitor is open/disconnected
  • opening the start winding circuit with a centrifugal switch is how other types of split phase motors operate
there are other design differences that may be subtle enough to avoid casual visual inspection that nevertheless exist.

Read this overview from Twin City Fans.
https://www.tcf.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Single-Phase-AC-Induction-Squirrel-Cage-Motors-FE-1100.pdf

and page 1 from this paper regarding PWM control of PSC motors.
http://lipo.ece.wisc.edu/2000pub/00-04.PDF

The capacitor value is chosen so that the total impedance in the auxiliary
winding (auxiliary winding impedance plus the external capacitance)
produces a sufficient phase shift in the current so that a
rotating MMF is developed inside of the machine. The rotating
MMF is developed when the phase currents are in quadrature.
The series connection of the capacitor and the inductive auxiliary
winding effectively creates a resonant tank which raises the
applied voltage across the auxiliary winding. In order to keep
the MMF produced by this winding equal to that produced by
the main winding, the auxiliary winding has additional turns, a
greater resistance and a reduced current causing the PSC induction
motor to be asymetrical.
 
Try removing the fan blades and see if it makes a difference.

Unloaded, it should run with just one winding (once started) ..
 
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