"Fatal" mistake for flat earther

[OCR]

If thousand people deal for five minutes with an essay which is nonsense from the start^*, then we have wasted a total week of reading a textbook instead.

It is a waste of time^* and we should prevent our members from wasting theirs.

Lol, this ^*thread was 30 posts long. . . now it's 31. .

.

 

[hutchphd]

In my generous view, FEs are taking this to heart. Don't accept argument by authority; doubt what you are told.

This is indeed an admirable trait and fundamental to our ethos. But one cannot just reject common belief as "dogma" and substitute an extraordinary claim. If you have extraordinary proof then I am absolutely willing to listen. But if you tell me Apollo spacecraft did not land on the moon and you cannot (or will not) speak to the laser reflector, the orbiter photos, the foolishness of the Van Allen belt claims, thousands of participants, etc etc etc) then you need to be labelled loudly and often a "nutcase" lest some other poor soul be induced to waste her precious time listening to you.
And remember not very long ago many people were burned as witches. I greatly fear a similar future. We do not require consensus on what is true but we do need consensus on how we will decide what is false..

 

[phinds]

the average citizen, who forces the media to dumb stuff down because the average citizen is not interested enough to appreciate science.

Dave, I think that's unnecessarily dismissive of the average citizen. The lack of interest in science is, I think, unfortunately quite understandable. People have little interest in learning detailed subjects that they are not going to put to any use. They don't CARE how GPS works, or their smart-phone, etc, they just care that those things DO work. They are far more concerned with the boss at work, what's for dinner, what's on TV, etc. This does not make them bad people. Yes, it DOES cause media outlets to have to dumb down technical stuff and it makes for a rather poorly informed citizenry on scientific issues, but that is nothing new in the world.

 

[jbriggs444]

(They thought a watermelon would fall 20x faster than an orange, because - hey it's logical..)

Watermelons do fall faster than oranges. Do not argue with caricatures of what Aristotle held true.

 

[DaveC426913]

Watermelons do fall faster than oranges. Do not argue with caricatures of what Aristotle held true.

Hey - I don't take credit - I stole it from Carl Sagan.

 

[phinds]

"each man's opinion is as good as another and better than most!"

The problem is not that point of view so much as that it has morphed into "each man's FACTS are as good as another and better than most" and a lot of people can't tell the difference.

 

[jbriggs444]

Hey - I don't take credit - I stole it from Carl Sagan.

But Aristotle didn't say it. Sagan didn't say that he did and even if Aristotle had said what Sagan didn't say he said, arguing against it because it is something Aristotle said is irrelevant.

Argument from authority twice removed?

 

[fresh_42]

I say an orange doesn't fall at all in water. Not sure about a watermelon, but I think it does fall.

 

[jbriggs444]

I say an orange doesn't fall at all in water. Not sure about a watermelon, but I think it does fall.

Video says "it floats".

 

[vela]

Most of the time, they cannot follow (or even access) the data. In such a case, denying is the easiest (only?) option if you don't want to follow blindly.

They could admit they don't know rather than deny. It's quite different to say one is not convinced the Earth is round than to assert the Earth is flat.

 

[russ_watters]

Watermelons do fall faster than oranges. Do not argue with caricatures of what Aristotle held true.

Could you clarify this some? By what mechanism do they fall faster and was that explained by Aristotle?

I don't see what is controversial in what Dave said.

 

[gmax137]

Lol, this ^*thread was 30 posts long. . . now it's 31. .

.

and climbing. without any details on the steam rocket. that's what I'd like more details on.

 

[jbriggs444]

Could you clarify this some? By what mechanism do they fall faster and was that explained by Aristotle?

I don't see what is controversial in what Dave said.

Terminal velocity. I'd expect the air resistance to scale as the area and the down force to scale with the volume [for comparable densities]. I doubt that Aristotle ever actually talked about oranges and watermelons.

 

[russ_watters]

Terminal velocity. I'd expect the air resistance to scale as the area and the down force to scale with the volume [for comparable densities]. I doubt that Aristotle ever actually talked about oranges and watermelons.

My understanding was that terminal velocity aside(I doubt he knew of it), Aristotle believed objects fell at a rate proportional to weight. I don't recall hearing a connection between Aristotle and fruit either, except with regard to Tycho Brahe, who is said to have dropped different sized fruit at dinner parties to prove Aristotle wrong.

 

[celvet]

Just think how many free flu shots could have been given with what money he and his backers invested in trying to prove the Earth is flat.

Do you really think that the majority of flat earthers are pro-vaccination? As they most likely are not, would they care?

Regarding the video of the watermelon -- I don't think video would be an accepted source. . . Did you see it float with your own eyes?

EL

 

[jbriggs444]

Just think how many free flu shots could have been given with what money he and his backers invested in trying to prove the Earth is flat.

One thing about free flu shots is that they are literally free. Insurance pays for them. The insurance company is [I strongly suspect] willing to do so in part because of the savings for not having to pay for flu cases. The net cost is less than zero. The societal net cost is far less than zero.

 

[phinds]

One thing about free flu shots is that they are literally free. Insurance pays for them.

And your insurance is free? Mine sure isn't

 

[DaveC426913]

Terminal velocity. I'd expect the air resistance to scale as the area and the down force to scale with the volume [for comparable densities]. I doubt that Aristotle ever actually talked about oranges and watermelons.

If we're going to beat this to death, then let's clarify a few things:

1. I paraphrased Carl Sagan. He mentioned the watermelon and orange discrepancy in one of the Cosmos eps. I acknowledged this in post 35.
2. I did not say Aristotle said anything about watermelons or oranges or how fast they fall. Those are two separate thoughts in two separate sentences - and those two separate sentence have different subjects - one "Aristotle", the other: an ambiguous - yet plural - "they".
3. I did not simply say "they thought watermelons fall faster than oranges" (which may or may not be true, but is a red herring); what I said was "they thought watermelons fall 20x faster than oranges". (which they don't).

My post 29 stands.

 

[jbriggs444]

And your insurance is free? Mine sure isn't

You are right, of course.

I was trying to point out that the incremental cost of the flu shot is zero for you and likely negative for the insurance company. In a rational society (*cough* *cough*), free vaccinations for everyone would be an obvious no brainer.

 

[hutchphd]

One thing about free flu shots is that they are literally free. Insurance pays for them. The insurance company is [I strongly suspect] willing to do so in part because of the savings for not having to pay for flu cases. The net cost is less than zero. The societal net cost is far less than zero.

Point well made.
But there is always the issue of working capital and somehow (I should probably have read more Karl Marx) liquid funds never seems available for such endeavors. Of course this begs the question where in this process it actually seems a zero sum game when in the long term it surely and manifestly is not.

 

[phinds]

You are right, of course.

I was trying to point out that the incremental cost of the flu shot is zero for you and likely negative for the insurance company. In a rational society (*cough* *cough*), free vaccinations for everyone would be an obvious no brainer.

I agree.

 

[fresh_42]

I was trying to point out that the incremental cost of the flu shot is zero for you and likely negative for the insurance company.

I'm sure the costs for the alternative are some powers of ten higher for the insurance company!

As to SARS-2cov again. I've seen a doctor today who said that people must look at the label "partially anti viral" if they buy disinfectants, and added that those based on ethanol are best. Given the fact that the virus replicates on oral mucosa, gargling with alcohol is back on the table, isn't it? It won't cure an infection but reduce the reproduction rate, one might think. Why isn't this used e.g. for common flue, which is related to SARS-2cov?

 

[Klystron]

I'm sure the costs for the alternative are some powers of ten higher for the insurance company!

As to SARS-2cov again. I've seen a doctor today who said that people must look at the label "partially anti viral" if they buy disinfectants, and added that those based on ethanol are best. Given the fact that the virus replicates on oral mucosa, gargling with alcohol is back on the table, isn't it? It won't cure an infection but reduce the reproduction rate, one might think. Why isn't this used e.g. for common flue, which is related to SARS-2cov?

I can provide anecdotal information based on US history. Until recently, inexpensive ethanol was sold alongside isopropyl alcohol in drug stores and the health section of grocery stores. Ethyl alcohol was also a common ingredient in mouthwashes. I have not found ethyl alcohol for sale for medical use in over twenty years except in expensive hand wipes. Mouthwashes advertise as 'alcohol free'.

I keep a small bottle of cheap vodka for use during colds; still an expense due to taxes on drinkable alcohol. At this point I must state I rarely imbibe 'spirits'. Enjoy a glass of wine or beer with meals.

Federal alcohol prohibition ended officially in 1933 in the USA but prohibitive attitudes persist.

 

[fresh_42]

At this point I must state I rarely imbibe 'spirits'. Enjoy a glass of wine or beer with meals.

Me, too. But it is indeed a cultural thing and here in Europe we are quite proud of good Scottish Whiskeys, excellent fruit brandies, and the Russians have even a few good Vodkas. A shot to a welcome, after lunch, or at celebrations had been the normal in my grandfather's generation.

Another interesting question would be, whether onions and garlic are helpful. I know they are antiseptic and work well against inflammations (to some extent). But are they - the sulfur compounds - antiviral, at least a bit?

 

[Miles Behind]

Really? I have not read anything about a personal parachute. I assumed he rode the rocket down. It gives me a tiny amount of comfort to think that he did not die trapped falling head first in that tin can. That would have been awful.
Yeah. Some rumours have it that he wasn't really a Flat Earther but a rocket enthusiast. He simply used the Flat-Earthers' money to build his rocket.

His rocket's parachute separated at lift off and stayed with the launch site. His entire flight was sans parachute.

 

[DaveC426913]

His rocket's parachute separated at lift off and stayed with the launch site. His entire flight was sans parachute.

Yes.

But someone speculated about a personal parachute i .e. strapped to him.

 

[Miles Behind]

The entire flight was only about 19 seconds. As a designer with previous flight experience he probably knew there wouldn't be enough time to properly eject with a required safety margin. If he took 10 seconds to peak, and 5 seconds to realize something was wrong, he would be dead even if he could release the canopy and climb out. Maybe he knew that and depended upon his main chute?

 

[DaveC426913]

The entire flight was only about 19 seconds.

I had no idea it was that short.