Field loss in a shunt wound dc motor

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of a shunt wound DC motor during a field loss event. Participants explore the implications of losing power to the field winding, including the motor's tendency to "run away" and the underlying electrical principles involved. The conversation includes technical explanations, conceptual clarifications, and mathematical reasoning related to motor operation and magnetic fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why a shunt wound DC motor would run away if the field winding loses power, suggesting that the armature should slow down without a magnetic field to interact with.
  • Another participant explains that when the magnetic flux drops, the internal generated voltage decreases, leading to an increase in armature current and torque, which can cause the motor speed to increase until it breaks or reaches load torque.
  • It is noted that due to hysteresis in the core, the magnetic flux does not reach zero even if the applied voltage is removed, which contributes to the motor's behavior.
  • One participant expresses difficulty in understanding the mathematical aspects of the explanation, indicating a superficial understanding of electric motors.
  • A later reply clarifies the notation used in the equations and explains that the steel core retains a remanent magnetic field after power is removed, acting like a weak permanent magnet that drives the rotor.
  • Another participant discusses the factors that determine the base speed of a shunt DC motor, emphasizing the role of the field winding's resistance and its effect on speed and torque regulation.
  • It is highlighted that with the field winding open, only residual magnetism remains, which is insufficient to oppose the armature's magnetic field, leading to a rapid increase in speed.
  • Mathematical relationships are presented to illustrate how motor speed is affected by armature current and magnetic flux, with the implication that as the field collapses, speed increases proportionally.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and agreement on the concepts discussed. While some points are clarified, there remains no consensus on the implications of field loss and the exact mechanisms at play in the motor's behavior.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention specific equations and concepts such as hysteresis and remanent magnetism, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions and implications of these terms in the context of motor operation.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying electrical engineering, particularly in the areas of motor control and electromagnetic theory, as well as individuals seeking to understand the operational characteristics of DC motors.

david90
Messages
311
Reaction score
2
In a field loss event, why does a shunt wound dc motor run away? From my understand of electric motor, the armature spins because it's magnetic field pushes/pulls against the field winding's magnetic field. If I remove power to the field winding, then shouldn't the motor slows down because the armature's magnetic field has nothing to pushes/pulls against? Isn't like a permanent magnet motor running without the magnets?
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
In case the flux drops to "phi"_res the internal generated voltage dops with it.(EA=K *'phi'*w) And thus causes the armature current to increase, likewise the torque(K*'phi'*IA). And speed increases until it breakes or the generated torque reaches load torque.

Due to hysteresis inn the core the flux("magnetic field") never reaches zero ("phi"_res), if the applied voltage is removed.
 
SirAskalot said:
In case the flux drops to "phi"_res the internal generated voltage dops with it.(EA=K *'phi'*w) And thus causes the armature current to increase, likewise the torque(K*'phi'*IA). And speed increases until it breakes or the generated torque reaches load torque.

Due to hysteresis inn the core the flux("magnetic field") never reaches zero ("phi"_res), if the applied voltage is removed.

Very good!,I enjoy from this conceptual Question and wonderful answer.

--------------------------------
Creative thinking is breezy, Then think about your surrounding things and other thought products. http://electrical-riddles.com
 
m.s.j said:
Very good!,I enjoy from this conceptual Question and wonderful answer.

--------------------------------
Creative thinking is breezy, Then think about your surrounding things and other thought products. http://electrical-riddles.com

huh? I don't get it. Currently my understand of electric motor is very superficial so that's why I'm having a hard time understand your answer from a mathematical pov.
 
Its actually not that hard to understand, my explenation may be a little diffuse.

I don't know which notation you are used to, but;
- E_a is the internal generated voltage.
- K is contant
- "phi" (greek letter, not pi) donates the magnetic flux
- w (omega) is the rotational velocity

The steel core (ferromagnetic material) of the stator have a remanent magnetic field after the current in the coils are switched off. Look up hysteresis. The core thus becomes an permanent magnet which "drives" the rotor. But the flux is weak and the equations yields that the motor runs away.
 
o I see. In a shunt dc motor, what factors determine it's base speed?
 
You should think about in terms of how a shunt motor operates..

As you know a shunt motor has its field winding connected in parallel w/ the armature winding. It is a high resistance winding (about 10 ohms) and as such accepts a lower amount of the applied current.

The shunt winding does not saturate as quickly as a low resistance heavy gauge series winding.. as in a series motor. This results in good speed regulation from no load to full load, as well as good torque regulation although it is quite low (because not much current reaches the shunt, it has a high impedance).

However with the shunt field open, There exists only the residual magnetism (not really like a permanent magnet motor without magnets as you said..) This residual magnetism is not enough field strength to oppose the armature magnetic field, which now has all the applied current passing through it (now that the shunt is open).

w/ such a high application of current, we have a very powerful magnetic field w/ not enough opposition from the residual magnetic field to control it. The motors speed tends toward infinity as quick as it can until its housing cannot contain the force and it destroys itself.

From a mathematical standpoint.. the motor speed (N) equals to the ratio of motor constant times current applied minus current lost to field flux. N = K(I-VR) / phi .. as the field is opened and the flux collapses the armature current is becoming increasingly high, and as such the motor speed N is increasingly proportionally.

Hope I helped, K. Tucker
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Replies
5
Views
6K
Replies
12
Views
3K
Replies
21
Views
2K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
35
Views
9K