Find possible subgroups given some elements

  • Thread starter Thread starter gummz
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Elements
Click For Summary
The discussion centers on determining the possible subgroups H of Z that contain 2^50 and 3^50 under addition. Participants clarify that H must be a subgroup of Z, leading to the conclusion that H could potentially be Z, 2Z, 10Z, 25Z, or 50Z. There is confusion regarding the interpretation of exponentiation in the context of group operations, with some arguing that 2^50 and 3^50 should be treated as standard exponentiation rather than repeated addition. The conversation emphasizes the importance of consistent notation in mathematical expressions. Ultimately, the correct interpretation of the subgroup H is crucial for understanding its structure.
gummz
Messages
32
Reaction score
2

Homework Statement



Suppose that H is a subgroup of Z under addition and that H contains 2^50 and 3^50. What are the possibilities for H?

Homework Equations



Relevant concepts are just the definitions for a group and subgroup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_(mathematics)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subgroup

The Attempt at a Solution



The solution I was given is the following:

V4SNMuS.png


But what I'm wondering about, and would appreciate an answer to, is the following:

But the subgroup has operation "addition" so 2^50 = 50*2 = (2*5*5)*2, and 3^50 = 50*3 = (2*5*5)*3, so the possibilities for H are:

H=Z, H=2Z, H=10Z, H=25Z, H=50Z.

Or am I missing something?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Firstly, after ##"H## contains ##\mathbb{Z}"## you can stop, because ##\mathbb{Z} \subseteq H \subseteq \mathbb{Z}## (the latter for being a subgroup) already implies ##H = \mathbb{Z}##.

What you are missing is, that ##2^{50} \neq 50^2## or ##100##.
 
Thanks for reply. But if we write out the notation, then, for group with operation "addition":

250 = 50*2, and 502=2*50, and Z is commutative? That is, in general, an=n*a
 
No, you can't confuse these notations. ##2^{50}## is simply a number and the subgroup is ##(H,+)=2^{50}\cdot (\mathbb{Z},+) + 3^{50}\cdot (\mathbb{Z},+)##. Otherwise one would have defined ##H=100\mathbb{Z}+150\mathbb{Z}=50\mathbb{Z}##.
 
gummz said:
Thanks for reply. But if we write out the notation, then, for group with operation "addition":
250 = 50*2

I think the notation used in the problem isn't consistent with the interpretation of ##a^k## for a group element ##a##. You are correct that for a group operation denoted "##*##", the interpretation of the notation ##a^3## is usually ##a*a*a##. So for the operation "##+##", the interpretation would be "##a+a+a##". However, I think the problem is using the notation for exponents in the standard sense that it is used for the field of real numbers. By that notation ## 2^3 = (2)(2)(2)## instead of ##2+2+2##.
 
Question: A clock's minute hand has length 4 and its hour hand has length 3. What is the distance between the tips at the moment when it is increasing most rapidly?(Putnam Exam Question) Answer: Making assumption that both the hands moves at constant angular velocities, the answer is ## \sqrt{7} .## But don't you think this assumption is somewhat doubtful and wrong?

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
Replies
6
Views
3K
Replies
8
Views
5K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
2K