Frequency and energy of EM radiation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the energy and frequency of electromagnetic (EM) radiation, specifically whether the direct proportionality between energy and frequency can be derived from classical electromagnetism without invoking quantum mechanics (QM). Participants explore the implications of classical theories and how they relate to quantum descriptions of EM waves.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the proportionality ##E \propto \nu## for an EM wave can be derived from classical electromagnetism, suggesting that classical theory does not establish this relationship.
  • Others argue that in classical electromagnetism, the energy of an electromagnetic wave is proportional to the square of the amplitude of the electric field, independent of frequency.
  • A participant notes that in quantum mechanics, a classical EM wave can be viewed as comprising many photons, which complicates the understanding of energy in relation to frequency.
  • Some participants express confusion about the apparent similarity between the relativistic Doppler formulas for frequency and energy, questioning how this aligns with classical EM principles.
  • There is a discussion about the intensity of EM waves, with some asserting that it is more meaningful to consider intensity rather than energy when discussing classical EM waves.
  • One participant reflects on the transformation of energy and frequency between frames, suggesting that the identical transformation does not imply a direct proportionality in classical EM theory.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the relationship between energy and frequency in classical electromagnetism. Multiple competing views are presented, with some asserting no direct relationship and others questioning the implications of quantum mechanics on this topic.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the assumptions underlying the relationship between energy and frequency, particularly in the context of classical versus quantum descriptions. The discussion also highlights the complexity of relating classical EM principles to relativistic effects.

  • #31
ZapperZ said:
If one were to measure power, which is what I started with (i.e. the amount of energy measured in a unit time), then which wave will produce more energy for a fixed amplitude (i.e. they have the SAME average energy per cycle): the one that makes more complete cycle per unit time, or the one that makes less complete cycle per unit time?

Case 1: Let's say we have a 12 V battery, from witch we draw 1 Ampere for one second, zero Amperes for one second, 1 Ampere for one second ... and so on.

Now the RMS voltage of that current is ## \frac{12}{ \sqrt 2} ##

And the average power is 6 W.Case 2: Let's say we have a 12 V battery, from witch we draw 1 Ampere for two second, zero Amperes for two seconds, 1 Ampere for two seconds ... and so on.

The RMS voltage of that current is still ## \frac{12}{ \sqrt 2} ##

And the average power is still 6 W.

(The voltage varies between 0 and 12, that is the idea, for some reason I talked about amperage)
 
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  • #32
jartsa said:
Case 1: Let's say we have a 12 V battery, from witch we draw 1 Ampere for one second, zero Amperes for one second, 1 Ampere for one second ... and so on.

Now the RMS voltage of that current is ## \frac{12}{ \sqrt 2} ##

And the average power is 6 W.Case 2: Let's say we have a 12 V battery, from witch we draw 1 Ampere for two second, zero Amperes for two seconds, 1 Ampere for two seconds ... and so on.

The RMS voltage of that current is still ## \frac{12}{ \sqrt 2} ##

And the average power is still 6 W.

(The voltage varies between 0 and 12, that is the idea, for some reason I talked about amperage)

I don't think this is what we're talking about. The average value doesn't change, because this is the same value averaged over one cycle. But there is a difference if your measurement window measures 10 complete oscillations, or 20 complete oscillations. The device will measure the the total energy within that window. This is what I tried to emphasize in my first post here.

Zz.
 

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