The discussion revolves around the role of friction in motion, specifically whether friction can provoke motion rather than merely oppose it. Participants explore various scenarios involving static and kinetic friction, particularly in the context of walking and the interaction of surfaces.
Participants express differing views on the role of friction in motion, with no consensus reached on whether friction solely prevents slipping or also contributes to motion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the nature of friction in various contexts.
Participants mention concepts such as static and kinetic friction, the normal force, and the implications of frictionless surfaces, but do not resolve the complexities surrounding these definitions and their applications.
Doc Al said:Friction opposes slipping between surfaces, not necessarily the motion of an object.
Sure. You can set up one yourself. Stack two books on top of each other on a table. Push the bottom book along. Friction moves the top book and acts in the same direction as its motion.terryds said:Is there any example case where the friction force direction is the same as the motion of the object?
Ah, you're right!Doc Al said:Sure. You can set up one yourself. Stack two books on top of each other on a table. Push the bottom book along. Friction moves the top book and acts in the same direction as its motion.
No.terryds said:But, is it correct if I say that all the friction force that can do this is only the static frictional force??
Sure. Just push the bottom book hard enough so that the top book begins to slip. The kinetic friction acting on the top book acts in its direction of motion.terryds said:Is there any kinetic frictional force that provokes this situation?
Doc Al said:No.
Sure. Just push the bottom book hard enough so that the top book begins to slip. The kinetic friction acting on the top book acts in its direction of motion.
Sure. Without friction, you won't be able to start moving (or regulate your steps). Your feet would just keep slipping.terryds said:If a person walks, does it mean that the friction force provokes the forward motion?
Not sure what you mean. Friction is an interaction between two surfaces: The surfaces exert equal and opposite friction forces against each other, per Newton's 3rd law.terryds said:Is the friction force the same as reaction forc (Newton 3rd Law)?
Doc Al said:Sure. Without friction, you won't be able to start moving (or regulate your steps).Not sure what you mean. Friction is an interaction between two surfaces: The surfaces exert equal and opposite friction forces against each other, per Newton's 3rd law.
I'd say that the second is more accurate. Realize that the force the floor exerts on you has two components: a normal component and a 'parallel' component. That parallel component is due to friction. Of course, without the normal force there would be no friction.terryds said:There are two thoughts of mine about it:
1. The friction force is just to prevent you from slipping, but not push your foot forward. The force that push the foot forward is the reaction force because I have pushed my foot onto the floor first.
2. The friction force prevents from slipping and also generate the forward motion of the foot
Which one is right?
Doc Al said:I'd say that the second is more accurate. Realize that the force the floor exerts on you has two components: a normal component and a 'parallel' component. That parallel component is due to friction. Of course, without the normal force there would be no friction.
Imagine you are placed on a frictionless surface. The normal force is still there, but without friction you are stuck.
No. Unless your foot slips, the friction is static.terryds said:In this case, is it kinetic or static friction that exerts on my foot?
I think it must be kinetic friction right since my foot is going from 0 m/s to some velocity, right?'
The normal force will support the entire weight of your body. I suppose you can perhaps stand there, but the slightest movement and you'll begin to slip.terryds said:But, what about standing on a very slipper surface that makes everyone cannot stand on it? I remember that maximum static force is μ*N , but what is the normal force? Is it equal to the weight of my foot only or my whole body?
Not sure what you mean. In any case, for a 'perfectly slippery' surface, μ = 0.terryds said:In this case, what force exceeds the μ*N? (I can't think of any force since I stand still (no acceleration))
Doc Al said:No. Unless your foot slips, the friction is static.The normal force will support the entire weight of your body. I suppose you can perhaps stand there, but the slightest movement and you'll begin to slip.Not sure what you mean. In any case, for a 'perfectly slippery' surface, μ = 0.
I wouldn't count on that. We typically rely on friction to keep our legs in place. But assuming that you could stand in such a way as to exert no horizontal force on the ground, you'd still be standing with friction removed.terryds said:So, if I stand still (without any movement at all) on the floor with friction, and suddenly, the floor changed somehow into frictionless one, I won't slip and fall, right?