General Equation for Sn in Terms of n

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding a general equation for the sequence \( S_n \) defined by a summation involving previous terms. Participants explore potential formulas and approximations for large \( n \), as well as the mathematical reasoning behind these approaches.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the sequence \( S_n = \sum_{i=1}^{n} (S_n - i)^{-1} \) with specific values for \( S_0 \) through \( S_5 \).
  • Another participant suggests that for large \( n \), \( S_n \approx \sqrt{2n} \), but does not provide a definitive formula.
  • A later reply seeks clarification on how the approximation \( S_n \approx \sqrt{2n} \) was derived.
  • One participant elaborates on viewing the sum as a Riemann sum leading to an integral equation, resulting in the approximation \( S_n = \sqrt{2n} \) for large \( n \).
  • Further discussion includes a query about why the constant \( c \) in the derived equation must be zero, with an explanation provided regarding the evaluation of the integral at \( x=0 \).
  • Another participant emphasizes that while \( S_n = \sqrt{2n} \) is a good approximation for large \( n \), it does not exactly match \( S_0 = 1 \), and discusses the implications of having \( c = 1 \) instead.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on an exact formula for \( S_n \). There are multiple competing views regarding the approximation and the reasoning behind the constant \( c \) in the integral equation.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations of the approximation \( S_n \approx \sqrt{2n} \) and the unresolved nature of the exact relationship between \( S_n \) and its initial conditions.

m84uily
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Sn = ∑ni = 1 (Sn - i)-1
S0 = 1

I want to know how to find the general equation for Sn (An example of what I mean by "general equation" would be
Sn = ∑ni = 1i = n(n+1)/2).
Here's S0 though S5:

S0 = 1
S1 = 1
S2 = 1 + 1
S3 = 1 + 1 + 1/2
S4= 1 + 1 + 1/2 + 2/5
S5 = 1 + 1 + 1/2 + 2/5 + 10/29

Thanks in advance, sorry if anything is unclear.
 
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I don't know about an exact formula, but it seems that for large ##n##, ##S_n \approx \sqrt{2 n}##.
 
The_Duck said:
I don't know about an exact formula, but it seems that for large ##n##, ##S_n \approx \sqrt{2 n}##.

That's neat! How did you get that result?
 
We can view the sum as being a Riemann sum (using rectangles of width 1) corresponding to the following integral equation:
$$f(x) = \int_{0}^{x}\frac{dt}{f(t)}$$
Differentiating both sides, we get
$$f'(x) = \frac{1}{f(x)}$$
By the product rule, this is equivalent to
$$ \frac{d}{dx}(f(x)\cdot f(x)) = 2$$
Thus
$$(f(x))^2 = 2x + c$$
and
$$f(x) = \sqrt{2x + c}$$
The integral equation evaluated at ##x=0## forces ##c=0##.

So ##f(x) = \sqrt{2x}## is a solution to the integral equation, and therefore, ##S_n = \sqrt{2n}## is an approximate solution to the original problem, when ##n## is large.
 
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jbunniii said:
We can view the sum as being a Riemann sum (using rectangles of width 1) corresponding to the following integral equation:
$$f(x) = \int_{0}^{x}\frac{dt}{f(t)}$$
Differentiating both sides, we get
$$f'(x) = \frac{1}{f(x)}$$
By the product rule, this is equivalent to
$$ \frac{d}{dx}(f(x)\cdot f(x)) = 2$$
Thus
$$(f(x))^2 = 2x + c$$
and
$$f(x) = \sqrt{2x + c}$$
The integral equation evaluated at ##x=0## forces ##c=0##.

So ##f(x) = \sqrt{2x}## is a solution to the integral equation, and therefore, ##S_n = \sqrt{2n}## is an approximate solution to the original problem, when ##n## is large.

Thanks a lot for explaining that, there's something I don't understand though:
The integral equation evaluated at ##x=0## forces ##c=0##.
Why is c=0 forced? Why isn't it c=1?
 
m84uily said:
Thanks a lot for explaining that, there's something I don't understand though:
The integral equation evaluated at ##x=0## forces ##c=0##.
Why is c=0 forced? Why isn't it c=1?
We have
$$f(x) = \int_{0}^{x}\frac{dt}{f(t)}$$
Evaluating this at ##x=0## gives us
$$f(0) = \int_{0}^{0}\frac{dt}{f(t)}$$
The right hand side is an integral over an interval of zero width, so the result is zero. Note that this forces the integrand to have zero denominator at ##t=0##, but that's OK: the integral from 0 to 0 is still 0, and ##1/\sqrt{2t}## is (improperly) integrable over ##[0,x]## despite the singularity at ##t=0##.

Don't be concerned that ##f(0) = 0## does not match ##S_0 = 1## - no one is claiming that ##\sqrt{2n}## is an exact fit, just that it is a good approximation for large ##n##. Note that even if we had ##c=1##, the difference between ##\sqrt{2n+1}## and ##\sqrt{2n}## is negligible for large ##n##.
 
Okay thanks again, I understand now.
 

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