Undergrad General Relativity & The Sun: Does it Revolve Around Earth?

Click For Summary
In the context of general relativity, there are no privileged reference frames, allowing for the Earth to be considered a valid frame from which distant stars appear to orbit it every 24 hours. This leads to the question of whether such stars would exceed the speed of light, which is clarified by noting that only coordinate velocities can exceed light speed, while actual physics remains consistent with light's invariant speed in local frames. The discussion emphasizes that while you can choose any reference frame, the laws of physics become more complex in non-inertial frames, such as those involving rotation. Experimental methods, like the Foucault pendulum, can demonstrate Earth's rotation relative to distant stars, but distinguishing "absolute rotation" remains philosophically complex. Ultimately, the behavior of physical systems is tied to the geometry of spacetime, influenced by the distribution of stress-energy.
  • #91
JohnNemo said:
I’m not really counting that as a ‘big’ part of GR because that is what everyone thought before Einstein

Not quite. I think it's true that it was generally understood that proper acceleration was not relative. However, I don't think it was generally understood that proper acceleration and coordinate acceleration are distinct concepts.

JohnNemo said:
isn’t Kretschmann right here that it is very useful mathematics but ‘physically vacuous’?

It's true that saying you can always choose coordinates in which the coordinate acceleration of a given object vanishes does not distinguish different physical theories. You can do it with Newtonian physics as well as relativity. But that also was not fully understood at the time Einstein discovered GR. For example, the general understanding of Newtonian physics was that in a non-inertial frame, the laws of physics do not look the same: you have extra things like "centrifugal force" and "Coriolis force" that don't appear in inertial frames. It wasn't until Cartan developed his tensor-based formulation of Newtonian physics, which was, IIRC, in the 1920s, that it was fully realized that you could write the Newtonian laws so that they would look the same in any coordinates, the way Einstein showed you could do with relativity.

The way I would describe the modern understanding is similar to Einstein's response to Kretschmann's objection: while it's true that you can write any theory's laws in tensor form, so they look the same in any coordinates, some sets of laws look simpler in this form than others. For example, GR looks simpler than Newtonian gravity in this form. So there is still heuristic value in writing laws in this form; even if, strictly speaking, you can't rule out any theories this way, you can still compare different theories and see which ones look simpler.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #92
PeterDonis said:
It's worth noting that these are different notions of "rotation", which do not always correspond. Also, none of them are exactly the same in general as the notion of "rotation relative to the distant stars" (although they do all match up for the "universe containing nothing but a bucket of water" scenario being discussed in this thread), which is the primary notion of "rotation" being discussed in this thread. This is probably opening a can of worms, but I will try to describe briefly the differences.

Is it the case that the Earth rotates once approximately every 24 hours (the different notions agreeing to a close approximation) and that this is an objective absolute property and not just a rotation relative to the distant stars?
 
  • #93
JohnNemo said:
Is it the case that the Earth rotates once approximately every 24 hours (the different notions agreeing to a close approximation) and that this is an objective absolute property
It sounds as if you are trying to use "objective" as a replacement for "frame-independent". Don't do that - one of those terms has a precise meaning that can be used to clearly describe the physics, and the other does not.

But if I'm understanding your question properly, then for a suitable definition of "rotates" the answer is yes. "It is really rotating" are the sloppy natural-language words that we use to describe something when the proper accelerations of its various parts are related in a particular way; because these proper accelerations are frame-invariant that sloppy description will work in all frames.

...and not just a rotation relative to the distant stars?
That question is well and thoroughly meaningless, because the distant stars are present in our universe. We could try rewording it some:

If we had a ball of rock floating in any otherwise empty universe with two jet engines on opposite sides and pointing in opposite directions, if we fire the engines for a while and then turn them off... Will points on the surface experience a different centripetal acceleration after the engines are turned off than before they were turned on?​

General relativity predicts that they will, and based on these proper accelerations we would say "it is rotating". You are free to leverage that into an assertion that the rotation of the Earth in our universe is "not just" a rotation relative to the distant stars... but if it's "not just" that in our universe, then what is it?
 
  • #94
Nugatory said:
It sounds as if you are trying to use "objective" as a replacement for "frame-independent". Don't do that - one of those terms has a precise meaning that can be used to clearly describe the physics, and the other does not.

But if I'm understanding your question properly, then for a suitable definition of "rotates" the answer is yes. "It is really rotating" are the sloppy natural-language words that we use to describe something when the proper accelerations of its various parts are related in a particular way; because these proper accelerations are frame-invariant that sloppy description will work in all frames.

Sorry for the sloppy language.

I understand that proper acceleration is frame independent.

Since rotation involves centripetal acceleration, I'm assuming that rotation is frame independent also, but you seem to be saying that it may not be that simple.

I can see that if there is nothing else in the universe then talking about rotation might be questionable, but if there is at least something else present in the universe then is rotation frame independent or is it still not that simple?
 
  • #95
JohnNemo said:
Is it the case that the Earth rotates once approximately every 24 hours (the different notions agreeing to a close approximation) and that this is an objective absolute property and not just a rotation relative to the distant stars?

"Objective absolute property" is vague ordinary language, not physics.

As @Nugatory said, when we say that the Earth is "rotating", if we want to translate that into actual physics, we have to talk about invariants--things like the proper accelerations of all the different parts of the Earth and how they are related. The question then becomes, what determines the values of those invariants? And the answer GR gives is, the geometry of spacetime. The geometry of spacetime tells you what the proper acceleration will be for any worldline you like. And what determines the geometry of spacetime? The answer GR gives is, the distribution of stress-energy in the universe.

So we basically have two cases to compare: (1) the distribution of stress-energy in our actual universe; (2) the distribution of stress-energy in a hypothetical universe that just contains the Earth and nothing else. GR can give us reasonably well-defined spacetime geometries for both of these distributions of stress-energy. And it just so happens that, as far as the vicinity of the Earth is concerned, the two geometries are basically the same. That is because, in case #1, the stress-energy in the rest of the universe is spherically symmetric about the Earth, outside a certain distance from the Earth, to a good approximation, and there is a theorem that says that a spherically symmetric distribution of stress-energy outside a certain distance has no effect on the spacetime geometry within that distance--more precisely, that it makes the spacetime geometry within that distance flat, just as if there were no stress-energy at all in the rest of the universe.

So from the standpoint of the spacetime geometry near the Earth, the effect of the rest of the universe is basically the same as if there were nothing else in the universe. This is why it's easy to mistakenly think that the rest of the universe is irrelevant to the Earth's rotation. It isn't, but the real issue isn't that the rest of the universe makes the spacetime geometry near the Earth be non-flat; it's that if there were no stress-energy anywhere else in the universe, the flat geometry would ultimately have to come from a boundary condition at infinity, which would have to be put into the model "by hand" instead of coming from some law of physics. Whereas in our actual universe, there is no "infinity"--no boundary condition is required; everything comes from the actual distribution of stress-energy and the laws of GR, nothing extra has to be put in "by hand".
 
  • #96
OK, returning to the question of does the Sun go round the Earth or does the Earth go round the Sun, obviously if we take the Sun as our reference frame, the Earth is in orbit, whereas if we take the Earth as our reference frame the Sun is in orbit. However if we take a reference frame which is non-rotating relative to the distant stars, it looks very much like the Earth is orbiting the Sun and not the other way around. But is there something special about a reference frame which is non-rotating relative to the distant stars?

In The Evolution of Physics (1938) - available at https://archive.org/details/evolutionofphysi033254mbp - Einstein wrote

"Can we formulate physical laws so that they are valid for all CS, not only those moving uniformly, but also those moving quite arbitrarily, relative to each other? If this can be done, our difficulties will be over. We shall then be able to apply the laws of nature to any CS. The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either CS could be used with equal justification. The two sentences, 'the sun is at rest and the Earth moves', or 'the sun moves and the Earth is at rest', would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS. Could we build a real relativistic physics valid in all CS; a physics in which there would be no place for absolute, but only for relative, motion? This is indeed possible!" (page 224)

which seems to indicate that he thought that there was nothing special at all about a reference frame which was non-rotating relative to the distant stars ("The struggle... between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless") but, when he wrote this, was he hoping that GR would be more Machian than it turned out to be?
 
  • #97
JohnNemo said:
But is there something special about a reference frame which is non-rotating relative to the distant stars?
...
which seems to indicate that he thought that there was nothing special at all about a reference frame which was non-rotating relative to the distant stars ("The struggle... between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless") but, when he wrote this, was he hoping that GR would be more Machian than it turned out to be?
You do realize that you are using the word "rotation" in this post with a completely different meaning than the proper-acceleration-based invariant meaning used in some of the previous posts? But because you've switched back to coordinate rotation the answer to the first question is "no" and the answer to the second question is "Probably not, because Machian principles aren't involved in assigning coordinates to events"
 
  • #98
JohnNemo said:
OK, returning to the question of does the Sun go round the Earth or does the Earth go round the Sun, obviously if we take the Sun as our reference frame, the Earth is in orbit, whereas if we take the Earth as our reference frame the Sun is in orbit. However if we take a reference frame which is non-rotating relative to the distant stars, it looks very much like the Earth is orbiting the Sun and not the other way around. But is there something special about a reference frame which is non-rotating relative to the distant stars?

In The Evolution of Physics (1938) - available at https://archive.org/details/evolutionofphysi033254mbp - Einstein wrote

"Can we formulate physical laws so that they are valid for all CS, not only those moving uniformly, but also those moving quite arbitrarily, relative to each other? If this can be done, our difficulties will be over. We shall then be able to apply the laws of nature to any CS. The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either CS could be used with equal justification. The two sentences, 'the sun is at rest and the Earth moves', or 'the sun moves and the Earth is at rest', would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different CS. Could we build a real relativistic physics valid in all CS; a physics in which there would be no place for absolute, but only for relative, motion? This is indeed possible!" (page 224)

which seems to indicate that he thought that there was nothing special at all about a reference frame which was non-rotating relative to the distant stars ("The struggle... between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless") but, when he wrote this, was he hoping that GR would be more Machian than it turned out to be?

I'll give the super short answer that I would up writing at the conclusion to this rather long post first, in the hopes it will avoid the too long, didn't read issue. Then comes the bulk of the post, which seems to have grown quite a bit over my original intent.

The short version: When we talk about objects never moving faster than "c", we are not using tensor language. When we talk about objects having time-like worldlines, we are using tensor language. The intent is basically the same, only the semantics are different. However, the tensor language statements won't necessarily be recongizable to people who are not familiar with tensors.

The longer disucssion, in a good-news, bad-news format.

Good news: Using tensor methods, we can indeed express the laws of physics in a coordinate system (CS) where the sun orbits the Earth - but there are some potential misunderstandings and limitatoins here, see below.

Bad news #1. One doesn't generally learn tensor methods until one is in graduate school. The methods one learns in high school physics will NOT allow one to think of the Sun as orbiting the Earth. Assuming that the tensor methods needed work in the ways that one is (presumably) familiar with from high school leads to misunderstandings.

Bad news #2. The coordinate systems in which the Sun orbit the Earth do not necessarily cover all of space-time. There are limits on the size of accelerating frames, for instance. There is a bit more below.

Bad news #3. The relationship between the coordinates and physically measurable quantities becomes considerably less straightforwards in general coordinates.

It's helpful to consider a specific example, which we will take to be a rotating frame of reference (such as the rotating Earth) using tensor methods. For convenience we will omit gravity, and just talk about a rotating frame of reference in a space-time without gravity. This relates to the title question of this thread as well, though the omission of gravity makes it not quite the same.

At some distance, the object at rest in these coordinates has what we call a null worldline. Having a null-worldline is a coordinate independent tensor-language statement that's roughly equivalent to the coordinate dependent statement "moving at the speed of light".

In tensor language, we would talk about the Born coordinate chart, <<link>>, and we'd concisely specify the coordinates by giving the metric tensor in the form of its line element:

$$ds^2 = -\left( 1- \frac{\omega^2 r^2}{c^2} \right) \mathrm dt^2 + 2 \omega r^2 \mathrm dt \, \mathrm d\phi + \mathrm dz^2 + \mathrm dr^2 + r^2 \mathrm d\phi^2$$

Physicisits familar with the methods generally regard the specification of such a metric as a complete description of a coordinate system, because they know how to calculate anything they need to calculate about the physics just from being given this mathematical expression. The issues with the size of the coordinate system, by the way, shows up in the above line element because ##\left( 1- \omega^2 r^2 / c^2 \right)## vanishes when ##\omega r## = c, making the tensor singular at this point. This is called a coordinate singularity. So we can see some differences between the rotating coordinates and the non-rotating coordinates, the former has a coordinate singularity, and the later doesn't.

Basically, the physics doesn't change, just the language changes, and people who haven't learned the tensor methods generally don't understand the tensor language. So we use language that is hopefully familiar to them instead.

If we take a physical experiment like that documented in "The Ultimate Speed", <<link>> we don't get any different results. Electrons (in this particular experiment) still have a limiting speed slower than c no matter how much energy we give them. We just use slightly different language to describe the results.

Rather than talking about the steps needed to make velocities (not tensors) into four-velocities (true tensors), I'll take a different approach to coordinate independence for this experiment. Regardless of coordinates, if we compare a light pulse and a pulse of relativistic electrons, the light pulse will move faster, than the electrons. For instance, if we send both pulses out at the same time (and make sure the electron beam is not deflected by any stray fields), the light pulse will arrive at the agreed-on destination first, the electrons will arrive later. This is true regardless of how much energy we give the electrons. We could perform a similar experiment on a rotating platform if we really wanted to. We might notice the electron beam taking a different path than the light beam in this case unless we could raise the energy of the electron beam high enough to make the differences experiemntally unmeasurable. But we'd never see the electron beam beating the light beam to the destination. The best we could do is make the difference experimentally so tiny that we can't measure it reliably.

I haven't really covered the issue of the physical significance of the coordinates, but it's somewhat important, so I'll try to give it a brief exposition. Basically, the "t" coordinate in the above rotating coordinate system doesn't have any direct relationship to what clocks read. In particular, as clocks approach the critical radius ##\omega r -> c##, the clocks slow down more and more in terms of the time coordinate t. In the limit, the clocks stop. This isn't the fault of the clocks actually stopping, it's just due to our choice of coordinates. We can figure this out by noting that the clocks don't stop in the inertial coordinates, while they do stop in the rotating coordinates. . Basically, the rotating coordinates are poorly behaved, they have coordinate singularities. The mathematical issue of ##g_{00}## disappearing is the same issue as the clocks stopping in my less formal exposition.

Using tensors, there isn't any problem with using generalized coordinates as long as they are well behaved. Guaranteeing that coordinates are well behaved and interpreting the physical significance of the coordinates is not as trivial as one might assume without some experience and practice actually using generalized coordinates.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes Ibix
  • #99
JohnNemo said:
is there something special about a reference frame which is non-rotating relative to the distant stars?

No. But the distribution of matter and energy can make things look simpler in a particular reference frame. You are confusing yourself by focusing on frames instead of on physics.

Consider a spherical region of space centered on the solar system, with a radius large enough to contain all the planets. As I said in a previous post, the average distribution of matter and energy in the universe is, to a good approximation, spherically symmetric about this region; that means that, if there were no matter and energy at all inside the region, spacetime in the region would be flat.

But there is matter and energy inside the region: the Sun and the planets. (There is other stuff too--satellites, asteroids, comets, etc.--but we can ignore it here.) So spacetime in the region is not actually flat; but because of the theorem I mentioned in a previous post, when figuring out the spacetime geometry within the region, we only need to consider the matter and energy inside the region.

And more than 99 percent of that matter and energy is contained in the Sun; that means that the spacetime geometry within the region of the solar system is, to a good approximation, the geometry of a single source of gravity, the Sun, in which all the other objects move on geodesics. That being the case, the simplest frame in which to describe motion in the region of the solar system is a frame in which the Sun is at rest.

But there are multiple possible frames in which the Sun is at rest--frames with different rates of rotation relative to the distant stars. Which one makes motion in the region of the solar system look simplest? You can probably guess the answer: the frame that is not rotating relative to the distant stars. (One way to see why this is the case is to imagine that the solar system was not there and the spherical region we have been talking about was empty; then spacetime in that region would be flat, and a frame not rotating relative to the distant stars would correspond to a standard inertial frame in Minkowski spacetime, which is the simplest frame in which to describe geodesic motion in flat spacetime.)

None of this means that a frame in which the Sun is at rest, and which is not rotating relative to the distant stars, is "special" in the sense of being picked out by the laws of physics. The laws of physics look the same in any frame. But the practical description of motion in the region of the solar system--what you get when you work out the particular solution of the laws of physics that describes the matter and energy and spacetime geometry in this region--looks simplest in the frame in which the Sun is at rest and which is not rotating relative to the distant stars, because of the particular distribution of matter and energy and the particular spacetime geometry it gives rise to.
 
  • #100
PeterDonis said:
None of this means that a frame in which the Sun is at rest, and which is not rotating relative to the distant stars, is "special" in the sense of being picked out by the laws of physics. The laws of physics look the same in any frame. But the practical description of motion in the region of the solar system--what you get when you work out the particular solution of the laws of physics that describes the matter and energy and spacetime geometry in this region--looks simplest in the frame in which the Sun is at rest and which is not rotating relative to the distant stars, because of the particular distribution of matter and energy and the particular spacetime geometry it gives rise to.

I started off thinking that, in GR, acceleration was all relative but I now understand that there is such a thing as invariant proper acceleration, so, having realized that I had started under a misapprehension, I am trying to get clear in my mind what else might be invariant in GR, and I am now concentrating on rotation but struggling a bit...

I know that where you have a rotating object, every part of it is accelerating in the direction of the axis of rotation so, since there is such a thing as invariant proper acceleration I am thinking that there might be something invariant about rotation. OTOH I know that rotation is a bit special because, unlike linear acceleration, the direction of motion is perpendicular to the direction of acceleration.

So... struggling to formulate a question which is not too woolly... I suppose my question is...

Is there anything invariant about rotation and, if not, how come if there is such a thing as invariant proper acceleration?
 
Last edited:
  • #101
JohnNemo said:
Is there anything invariant about rotation?
It depends on what you mean when you say "rotation". Throughout this thread, you have used that one word with two different meanings. Sometimes we've been able to work out which one you're intending at the moment from the context, but other times it is quite ambiguous.

This is one of those times when it is quite ambiguous, so I'll try an answer for both meanings.
1) By "rotation" you might mean that the proper accelerations of the various parts of an object bear a particular relationship to one another. This property is invariant, because the proper accelerations are invariant (although there are some subtleties here that we don't need to go into now).
2) By "rotation" you might mean that in some coordinate system the spatial coordinates of some objects are constant while the spatial coordinates of other objects are changing in a particular way. This property is not invariant, as is to be expected of anything that depends on the choice of coordinate system.
 
  • #102
Nugatory said:
It depends on what you mean when you say "rotation". Throughout this thread, you have used that one word with two different meanings. Sometimes we've been able to work out which one you're intending at the moment from the context, but other times it is quite ambiguous.

This is one of those times when it is quite ambiguous, so I'll try an answer for both meanings.
1) By "rotation" you might mean that the proper accelerations of the various parts of an object bear a particular relationship to one another. This property is invariant, because the proper accelerations are invariant (although there are some subtleties here that we don't need to go into now).
2) By "rotation" you might mean that in some coordinate system the spatial coordinates of some objects are constant while the spatial coordinates of other objects are changing in a particular way. This property is not invariant, as is to be expected of anything that depends on the choice of coordinate system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_rotation tells me that the Sun rotates about once a month. Is Wikipedia talking about 1 or 2?
 
  • #104
JohnNemo said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_rotation tells me that the Sun rotates about once a month. Is Wikipedia talking about 1 or 2?
It's not clear, but probably they are using a #2 definition with coordinates that are convenient for analysing planetary motion in our solar system. That doesn't mean that sun isn't also rotating under the #1 definition, it just means that the author of that wikipedia article (who probably understands less relativity than many of the contributors to this thread) was unaware of or uninterested in the subtleties here.
 
  • #105
I would say the discussion (in the referenced Wikipedia article on solar rotation) on use and inferences from helioseismology would translate readily to a vorticity tensor model, and are thus invariant descriptions of rotation.
 
  • #106
Nugatory said:
It's not clear, but probably they are using a #2 definition with coordinates that are convenient for analysing planetary motion in our solar system. That doesn't mean that sun isn't also rotating under the #1 definition, it just means that the author of that wikipedia article (who probably understands less relativity than many of the contributors to this thread) was unaware of or uninterested in the subtleties here.

OK. What I am interested in is whether, under *any* definition of "rotation" there is *anything* which is invariant and, if so, I would like to know more about what is invariant.
 
  • #107
JohnNemo said:
OK. What I am interested in is whether, under *any* definition of "rotation" there is *anything* which is invariant and, if so, I would like to know more about what is invariant.
I’ve given you a couple of answers to this. Read the linked material on kinematic decomposition leading to the definition of vorticity tensor.
 
  • #108
JohnNemo said:
OK. What I am interested in is whether, under *any* definition of "rotation" there is *anything* which is invariant and, if so, I would like to know more about what is invariant.
Yes, of course there is. We've mentioned rotation defined in terms of proper acceleration many times already in this thread, most recently in #101 above, (I'm not sure how anything could be clearer than "This property is invariant"); and @PAllen has pointed you at the vorticity tensor.
 
  • #109
JohnNemo said:
Is there anything invariant about rotation and, if not, how come if there is such a thing as invariant proper acceleration?

The proper accelerations of all the different parts of a rotating object are invariant. So you can look at the pattern of proper accelerations (the variation in direction--all pointing towards the axis instead of all pointing in the same direction) to distinguish rotation from linear acceleration. This is the sort of invariant definition of "rotation" that @Nugatory was getting at in a previous post.

Other invariant effects that are generally said to be due to "rotation" are Thomas precession, de Sitter precession, Lense-Thirring precession, and the Sagnac effect. All of these effects, if properly defined in terms of direct observables, are invariant.
 
  • #110
PAllen said:
I would say the vorticity tensor defines rotation in an invariant sense.

Yes, this is another invariant way of defining "rotation". However, it won't necessarily match up with the others (which won't necessarily all match up with each other either). This is one of the issues with "rotation" in GR: different definitions that, according to our intuitions, ought to all go together, actually don't.
 
  • #111
PeterDonis said:
The proper accelerations of all the different parts of a rotating object are invariant. So you can look at the pattern of proper accelerations (the variation in direction--all pointing towards the axis instead of all pointing in the same direction) to distinguish rotation from linear acceleration. This is the sort of invariant definition of "rotation" that @Nugatory was getting at in a previous post.

Other invariant effects that are generally said to be due to "rotation" are Thomas precession, de Sitter precession, Lense-Thirring precession, and the Sagnac effect. All of these effects, if properly defined in terms of direct observables, are invariant.

You have identified 5 invariant effects which indicate "rotation". Am I right in thinking that by measuring these effects and determining that they are absent you could determine that a particular object was - in an invariant sense - non-rotating?
 
Last edited:
  • #112
I believe I made an error in attributing the physical oddness of clocks stopping when ##\omega r = c## in the rotating Born coordinate chart that I mentioned earlier on a coordinate singulalrity. So I withdraw that remark, and struck out the appropriate section on the previous post. The determinant of metric tensor doesn't seem to vanish there.

My current thinking is that we can blame the oddities I noted (such as the behavior of clocks) on the unfamiliarity of interpreting the physical significance of null coordinates. Any coordinate system that makes light appear to stop by assigning a constant coordinate to a light beam will be a null coordinate. There's nothing mathematically wrong with null coordinates, but they cannot be forced into the mold of either a time coordinate or a space coordinate. In tensor language, if x is a coordinate, the sign of the invariant length of the vector ##\partial / \partial x## determines whether or not we call it a time, space, or null coordinate. The case where the length of the vector is zero is the case where x is a null coordinate.
 
  • #113
JohnNemo said:
Am I right in thinking that by measuring these effects and determining that they are absent you could determine that a particular object was - in an invariant sense - non-rotating?

Not quite, because, as I mentioned in an earlier post, in the general case these effects don't all go together--that is, they aren't all present or absent together. You can have an object in which some effects are present and others are not.

In other words, there is no single invariant division between "rotating" and "non-rotating"; these terms do not name natural categories. They're just convenient approximations that work well in many common scenarios, but break down if you try to push them too far.
 
  • #114
PeterDonis said:
Not quite, because, as I mentioned in an earlier post, in the general case these effects don't all go together--that is, they aren't all present or absent together. You can have an object in which some effects are present and others are not.

In other words, there is no single invariant division between "rotating" and "non-rotating"; these terms do not name natural categories. They're just convenient approximations that work well in many common scenarios, but break down if you try to push them too far.

Are you able to give a feel for how they are related? For example, is it the case that at fast rotational speeds they are all present but at slower speeds you might have some but not others?
 
  • #115
JohnNemo said:
is it the case that at fast rotational speeds they are all present but at slower speeds you might have some but not others?

No, it's not that simple. It's a matter of spacetime geometry; the relationship between them is different for different spacetime geometries.
 
  • #116
pervect said:
I believe I made an error in attributing the physical oddness of clocks stopping when ##\omega r = c## in the rotating Born coordinate chart that I mentioned earlier on a coordinate singulalrity. So I withdraw that remark, and struck out the appropriate section on the previous post. The determinant of metric tensor doesn't seem to vanish there.

My current thinking is that we can blame the oddities I noted (such as the behavior of clocks) on the unfamiliarity of interpreting the physical significance of null coordinates. Any coordinate system that makes light appear to stop by assigning a constant coordinate to a light beam will be a null coordinate. There's nothing mathematically wrong with null coordinates, but they cannot be forced into the mold of either a time coordinate or a space coordinate. In tensor language, if x is a coordinate, the sign of the invariant length of the vector ##\partial / \partial x## determines whether or not we call it a time, space, or null coordinate. The case where the length of the vector is zero is the case where x is a null coordinate.
I’m glad you corrected this, as I was tempted to give one of my favorite examples of a disguised Minkowski spacetime metric:

ds2 = da db + da dc + da de + db dc + db de + dc de
This is flat spacetime in all light like coordinates with (+,-,-,-) signature.
 
Last edited:
  • #117
PAllen said:
I’m glad you corrected this, as I was tempted to give one of my favorite examples of a disguised Minkowski spacetime metric:

ds2 = da db + da dc + da de + db dc + db de + dc de
This is flat spacetime in all light like coordinates with (+,-,-,-) signature.

Interesting. I'm not familiar with that metric, though I'll think about it some when I get a chance. I was thinking about the one-space one-time case, where we substitute u = x - ct and v=x+ct to turn the Minkowskii metric ##-c^2\,dt^2 + dx^2## into ##du\,dv##.

I'm not sure of the best way to put it into words that might be relevant to the thread. . I suppose the short version would be that it's true that as one approaches the speed of light that clocks run slower and slower, and that in the appropriate limit they stop. But all this winds up proving is that we don't necessarily have to represent or describe space-time in ways that involve clocks and rulers.
 
  • #118
PeterDonis said:
No, it's not that simple. It's a matter of spacetime geometry; the relationship between them is different for different spacetime geometries.

If we take the example from #99 of a spherical region of space where our solar system is but assume there is nothing there except a moderate sized planet which is at rest and non-rotating relative to the distant stars, would you expect the five invariant effects referred to earlier to be minimal or absent?

More generally, is there any kind of correlation between a body being non-rotating relative to the distant stars and the five invariant effects being minimal or absent?
 
  • #119
JohnNemo said:
If we take the example from #99 of a spherical region of space where our solar system is but assume there is nothing there except a moderate sized planet which is at rest and non-rotating relative to the distant stars, would you expect the five invariant effects referred to earlier to be minimal or absent?

In this particular, highly idealized case, yes, all of them would be absent.

JohnNemo said:
is there any kind of correlation between a body being non-rotating relative to the distant stars and the five invariant effects being minimal or absent?

Not in general, because in general there are other bodies present in the spherical region of space in question, and those other bodies affect the spacetime geometry there.

For example, a satellite orbiting the Earth exhibits all three of the precessions I referred to--which are actually best referred to simply as "rotational precession" or something like that, since in the general case there is no invariant way to separate them out. The overall effect is that "non-rotating" relative to the local spacetime geometry--i.e., the absence of the pattern of proper accelerations referred to earlier, and the absence of the Sagnac effect--is not the same as "non-rotating" relative to the distant stars (which would be the absence of the precession).

(Btw, I'm not sure whether the proper acceleration pattern and the Sagnac effect always go together; I don't think they do, but I can't come up with a counterexample at the moment.)
 
  • #120
@PeterDonis Thank you for all your explanations thus far. They are very useful and must have taken some considerable time to write in total – you are by far the most prolific writer on this thread.

I am aware that I have not responded to many posts by others on this thread. This is partly the result of the way discussion threads go – you get into a sort of dialogue with some people and not others – but I think it is also caused by the fact that I am trying to grapple with what are for me difficult concepts, and the idiosyncrasies of the individual learner influence which answers they find easiest to follow and follow up on. This is a very individual thing - an answer which objectively is both accurate and pertinent may leave one learner cold while being very illuminating to a different learner. So I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to write on-topic posts with the intention of trying to answer my questions.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 62 ·
3
Replies
62
Views
6K
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
6K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
4K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
3K
  • · Replies 90 ·
4
Replies
90
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 58 ·
2
Replies
58
Views
7K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K