General World Cup and in-game discussion

[D H]

Diving works.

 

[D H]

Unfortunately.

 

[Adjoint]

Really sad for Mexico.

 

[cristo]

Diving works.

I think it was a pen - he shouldn't be making that challenge there, and wasn't near the ball. And even if not, the one in the first half definitely was!

 

[DennisN]

http://allcityswimdive.org/nakoma/dive2013/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/ph-ppc-ph-ho-cf-hs-dive-3.jpg-20120731.jpeg

 

[D H]

The basic problem is that referees don't seem to think a foul has occurred if players don't go down, hard. So they go down, hard.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Looked like a robben dive. Wanted mex to win

 

[Fredrik]

Netherlands - Mexico 0-0 so far.

Robben seems to have very slippery shoes. He should have them changed during half time, so he can avoid slipping so much during the rest of the match. He seems to slip in particular when he's close to the opponent's goal...

I bet you didn't have any idea how awesome this comment would look after the match.

I'm absolutely disgusted by Robben's behavior. He shouldn't be allowed to continue playing in this tournament. Neither should Brazil's Fred of course, because of what he did in the opening game.

I think it was a pen - he shouldn't be making that challenge there, and wasn't near the ball. And even if not, the one in the first half definitely was!

I disagree about the penalty that decided the game. I didn't see the situation in the first half.

 

[fluidistic]

I don't understand why the world cup is not boycotted by most countries. Many decisions are unfair (for example Holland should have gotten a penalty kick in the first period against Mexico. Or there should have been a corner kick by Switzerland vs France in the first period instead of a goal kick) and they have all the technology available to make it fair but they choose not to.
So many cameras and yet no referee to double check all decisions made by the referees in game.
We are in 2014... what a disappointment. This tournament is more like poker than chess.

 

[Orodruin]

I bet you didn't have any idea how awesome this comment would look after the match.

I'm absolutely disgusted by Robben's behavior. He shouldn't be allowed to continue playing in this tournament. Neither should Brazil's Fred of course, because of what he did in the opening game.


I disagree about the penalty that decided the game. I didn't see the situation in the first half.

There are people diving in all teams. The problem is the refs falling for it.

Suspending Fred for the rest of the tournament probably would increase Brazil's chances. Apart from getting them that penalty, he only scored against Cameroon when the game was already over.

 

[cristo]

I'm absolutely disgusted by Robben's behavior. He shouldn't be allowed to continue playing in this tournament. Neither should Brazil's Fred of course, because of what he did in the opening game.

I disagree about the penalty that decided the game.

I don't get what there is to argue about. See here: http://worldsoccertalk.com/2014/06/...rlands-a-late-penalty-win-against-mexico-gif/

The defender lunged in, clipped the attackers foot and got none of the ball. Sure, Robben acted like he had been shot, but that doesn't make it less of a foul - it's only simulation if there is no contact in the first place.

 

[Fredrik]

I don't understand why the world cup is not boycotted by most countries. Many decisions are unfair (for example Holland should have gotten a penalty kick in the first period against Mexico. Or there should have been a corner kick by Switzerland vs France in the first period instead of a goal kick) and they have all the technology available to make it fair but they choose not to.
So many cameras and yet no referee to double check all decisions made by the referees in game.
We are in 2014... what a disappointment. This tournament is more like poker than chess.

I used to be interested in soccer when I was a kid, but I lost interest because so many games were decided by dives and bad calls by the referees. It got to the point where I thought that this isn't even a sport. I recently started to get interested again, first because of the Zlatan-mania here in Sweden, and then because of the world cup. Now I remember why I lost interest in the first place.

There's really no reason why they should ever make a mistake in a penalty situation when there's so much technology available. A boycott is probably not the best option, since it only hurts the country that's doing it, but I agree that something needs to be done.

The problem is the refs falling for it.

That's a good reason to support the use of technology for penalty situations. Imagine how awesome it would be if the referees in Brazil's opening game had pulled out an iPad or something, and watched the replays from different angles until they were satisfied, and then decided on no penalty, just a red card for Fred?

Suspending Fred for the rest of the tournament probably would increase Brazil's chances. Apart from getting them that penalty, he only scored against Cameroon when the game was already over.

That's not a problem. It was his personal decision to take a dive, so if FIFA takes action that punishes him but not the rest of the team, that's even better.

 

[Fredrik]

I don't get what there is to argue about. See here: http://worldsoccertalk.com/2014/06/...rlands-a-late-penalty-win-against-mexico-gif/

The defender lunged in, clipped the attackers foot and got none of the ball. Sure, Robben acted like he had been shot, but that doesn't make it less of a foul - it's only simulation if there is no contact in the first place.

I don't think there's enough information in that .gif. The biggest problem is that it starts too late. It would also be useful to see other angles.

 

[DennisN]

Ridiculously dramatic last minues in an otherwise pretty boring Colombia-Greece game. And now penalties, again... the drama continues... I have no idea what will happen .

EDIT:

I bet you didn't have any idea how awesome this comment would look after the match.

No, I definitely did not. But I was actually already annoyed at Robben at that point, I felt he was going to do some "tricks", and he did... more than once, e.g. he tried to "influence/pull" a couple of free kicks too (don't remember how many). It's too bad, IMO, he is a really, really good player. I prefer good AND fair players.

EDIT 2:
Costa Rica wins against Greece on penalties!

 

[Fredrik]

Here's a video of the Robben situation. You can skip the first 30 seconds. I watched it over and over, and I still find it hard to tell exactly what's going on. This is my take on the situation:

The defender extended his leg toward the ball, but as he realized that he was going to miss the ball, he slowed down and put his foot down. If it's just for balance or to trip Robben is hard to tell. He had absolutely no reason to trip Robben there, as the ball was rolling slowly into an area with three Mexicans, but he may not have realized that, and it looks like he moved his foot a bit to his left (towards Robben) a few cm just before he put it down.

The defender's right foot touched Robben's left foot. But Robben could easily lift his left foot over the defender's. The defender's right calf touched Robben's right foot. But Robben moved his right foot around the defender's leg. At that point, I think he could easily just put his foot down and not fall, but he chose to move his right foot back and to the right instead, so that he falls. He's flapping his arms and acting out as much as he can to draw attention to the situation.

If it hadn't been for the fact that Robben had made a dive 20 minutes earlier, I might have been inclined to interpret the situation differently. Now that I have googled "robben dive", I know that he's a disgusting cheater who does this sort of thing often. Regardless of what we might think about this situation, he's a disgrace to the game. Now that I know that, I think that the reason he kicked the ball away (slowly towards three Mexicans) was that he was already planning to make the dive as soon as the defender reached him. He just wanted it to look like the defender wasn't going for the ball.

I can't blame the referee for calling a penalty though. I looked at the replay over and over, and I'm still not completely sure what's going on. It must have been impossible for the referee. And the defender did have his foot in a suspicious place.

 

[Fredrik]

I think the Costa Rica game came very close to being settled by a dive and a bad call in a penalty situation. In the first half, a Greek player took a dive without being touched, and got his opponent a yellow card. In the second half, a Costa Rican player got his second warning, and therefore a red card. Was that the guy who got a yellow because of a dive? If so, then Costa Rica had to play with one guy less because of a dive.

In addition to that, Costa Rica was robbed of a penalty when the Greek defender did a "hand of god thing" to deflect the ball's path away from the Costa Rican guy's foot.

 

[cristo]

The defender extended his leg toward the ball, but as he realized that he was going to miss the ball, he slowed down and put his foot down. If it's just for balance or to trip Robben is hard to tell. He had absolutely no reason to trip Robben there, as the ball was rolling slowly into an area with three Mexicans, but he may not have realized that, and it looks like he moved his foot a bit to his left (towards Robben) a few cm just before he put it down.

The defender's right foot touched Robben's left foot. But Robben could easily lift his left foot over the defender's. The defender's right calf touched Robben's right foot. But Robben moved his right foot around the defender's leg. At that point, I think he could easily just put his foot down and not fall, but he chose to move his right foot back and to the right instead, so that he falls. He's flapping his arms and acting out as much as he can to draw attention to the situation.

This is you trying to justify the situation, but it is a straightforward decision: did the defender get the ball? no; did the defender make contact with the attacking player? yes. This is therefore a penalty - Robben is not required to step around a bad challenge!

I think you have a problem with diving footballers in general, and therefore choose to see this all the time.

 

[Fredrik]

This is you trying to justify the situation, but it is a straightforward decision: did the defender get the ball? no; did the defender make contact with the attacking player? yes. This is therefore a penalty - Robben is not required to step around a bad challenge!

I think you have a problem with diving footballers in general, and therefore choose to see this all the time.

You don't call a penalty every time there's a contact. You don't even do it 1/100 of the time when there's contact. What makes this situation debatable is that the contact was foot to foot.

I'm not saying that he should have stepped around the defender's leg. I'm saying that he did step around it and then chose to not let his foot touch the ground. I'm also saying that the started diving earlier in the match, and that he has done this many times before. This video shows three ridiculous dives he's done in the past.



They spend a bit too much time on the first one. You may want to skip the middle part and jump ahead to around 1:20 to see the last two.

I do have a problem with diving footballers. Don't you?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I agree with Fredrik's analysis. There is little doubt of some contact made, but I highly doubt it was enough to make Robben belly flop like he did. I play soccer 3 times a week and get smacked around in the box all the time and rarely flop like these guys. There is a huge difference in what being really tripped looks like. When you really get smacked you don't have time to make it look pretty. If a player falls like he was shot in the back, it's usually a flop.

Robben is one of the most balanced players and gets hit like that 100 times a game. Funny how you only see these kinds of reactions to being hit while in the box. Watch Robben being fouled like this at mid field and you'll see the difference.

This is why soccer gets little respect. Robben gets his little toe stepped on a acts like he was shot in the back. He does it because it works. The game doesn't need this. Either give defenders more power or add in after game analysis and hand out punishment.

 

[Borek]

This is why soccer gets little respect.

Are you trying to say there is no cheating in other sports? Please.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Are you trying to say there is no cheating in other sports? Please.

No...? Show we highlight reels of flops in American Football or Rugby.

* my comment is geared towards the American attitude on soccer

 

[micromass]

This is why soccer gets little respect. Robben gets his little toe stepped on a acts like he was shot in the back. He does it because it works. The game doesn't need this. Either give defenders more power or add in after game analysis and hand out punishment.

Right. All this diving takes a lot of fun out of watching the world cup. I wanted to see football, not a diving competition. If it were up to me, I would allow the use of television images in refereeing and award each dive with a yellow card. It's really not fun anymore.

 

[cristo]

I agree with Fredrik's analysis. There is little doubt of some contact made, but I highly doubt it was enough to make Robben belly flop like he did. I play soccer 3 times a week and get smacked around in the box all the time and rarely flop like these guys.

I'm not arguing whether or not robben embellished the contact, I'm arguing whether or not it was a penalty. And I'm aware, Fredrik, that not all incidences of contact in the box are a penalty - I'm talking about foot to foot contact, as in this case, which can cause a player to trip. If you're familiar with the rule book, you'll know that a trip or attempted trip in the box is a penalty. Again, in this instance, the ball had gone, the defender stuck his foot out in the path of the attacker and caught him without any attempt to play the ball. Textbook penalty.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I'm not arguing whether or not robben embellished the contact, I'm arguing whether or not it was a penalty. And I'm aware, Fredrik, that not all incidences of contact in the box are a penalty - I'm talking about foot to foot contact, as in this case, which can cause a player to trip. If you're familiar with the rule book, you'll know that a trip or attempted trip in the box is a penalty. Again, in this instance, the ball had gone, the defender stuck his foot out in the path of the attacker and caught him without any attempt to play the ball. Textbook penalty.

No attempt at the ball? The action is super fast, you cant' tell me Rafa was actually trying to trip Robben.

Look at the top photo here and the animations
http://mashable.com/2014/06/29/mexico-netherlands-world-cup-robben/

I won't defend Robben here. Maybe we should replace defenders with traffic cones. The second a defender is physical in the box the offensive player can flop and it becomes a call.

Watch his right leg in the animation. Instead of catching himself and continuing the play (which he most certainly could have done) he kicks it up and out for the flop.

 

[Borek]

2:0 for France - I was right again

 

[D H]

Look at the top photo here and the animations
http://mashable.com/2014/06/29/mexico-netherlands-world-cup-robben/

There's a false dilemma in that article, which is the question "So, in the final analysis: flop or foul?" That's not an either/or question. The answer to that question can be yes.

This argument over whether Robben was or wasn't fouled is a bit of a red herring. Mexico blew that game. Mexico lost the game well before that PK. Mexico lost the game shortly after they scored and switched to an overly defensive strategy. That game would have been theirs had they just kept on playing their style of game.

 

[lisab]

I don't follow sports in general, so I know nothing of soccerfootballpiłkanożna. But about that guy who was bitten - is he going to be OK? Have there been any symptoms yet of him turning Uruguayan?

 

[Fredrik]

I don't follow sports in general, so I know nothing of soccerfootballpiłkanożna. But about that guy who was bitten - is he going to be OK? Have there been any symptoms yet of him turning Uruguayan?

Yes, he's been quoted as saying that Suarez's punishment for the bite was too harsh.

 

[WWGD]

I don't follow sports in general, so I know nothing of soccerfootballpiłkanożna. But about that guy who was bitten - is he going to be OK? Have there been any symptoms yet of him turning Uruguayan?

Yes; it seems they may allow "(formerly)Hungry Mike" Tyson, to sub-in for Suarez. No problem here, since Mike is still full after his snack, er, I mean, boxing match, with Evander, "The Real Meal " Holyfield. As for the player turning Uruguayan, he has been seen renting movies in Monte Video.

But, more seriously, don't the cheats by/to a given team overall even up? And most people ( including me) seem to have a good time at it, imperfections and all.

 

[WWGD]

Sorry if I derailed the conversation with my old reference from my high school days and general comments.