Geometry of minkowski spacetime

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the geometry of Minkowski spacetime, particularly its characterization as flat and the implications of visualizations that depict spacetime curvature in general relativity (GR). Participants explore the use of hyperbolic functions in Lorentz transformations and the differences between Minkowski space and other geometric interpretations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the visualization of spacetime curvature in an applet, questioning why time appears curved when the mass is set to zero, suggesting it should be flat in both space and time.
  • Another participant explains that the level curves of Euclidean and Minkowski distances differ, with Minkowski producing hyperbolas, and concludes that the reason for using hyperbolic functions is simply that "it works."
  • A different viewpoint is presented, stating that Minkowski space is not curved in a geometrical sense, attributing the perceived "weirdness" to its different signature compared to Euclidean space.
  • One participant clarifies that the applet in question represents space-propertime, which is Euclidean, rather than Minkowski spacetime, and discusses the intrinsic versus extrinsic curvature of a cylinder.
  • Another participant reiterates that Minkowski spacetime is defined as pseudo-Euclidean, which is why some concepts are better visualized in the context of Euclidean space-propertime.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of Minkowski spacetime and its visual representations, indicating that multiple competing interpretations exist without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the implications of visualizations on the understanding of spacetime curvature and the definitions of various geometric interpretations. The discussion also highlights the dependence on specific definitions and assumptions related to Minkowski and Euclidean spaces.

Truth_Seeker
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since the first moment I've started studying the theory of relativity i thought that the minkowski metric represents a flat spacetime (a 4D euclidean space) but while I was surfing the WWW , I arrived to an interactive applet the helps you visualise the idea of spacetime curvature is GR , here it is : http://www.adamtoons.de/physics/gravitation.swf
in this applet when i putted the "spherical mass" bar to zero , it should have given me a flat spacetime ... i can see the flatness is space but i see a curved path in time ... shouldn't it be flat in both space and time ??!

seeing this also made me remember an old question i had when i first started relativity , why do we use hyperbolic functions "sinh .. cosh ... etc" in the rotation equations of lorentz transformation instead of ordinary trigonometric functions ??

thanks in advance ...
 
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One rationalization is that the level curve of the Euclidean distance function is a circle
x² + y² = r²​
and the level curve of the Minkowski distance function is a hyperbola
x² - y² = r² or y² - x² = r²​

Of course, in the end, the right answer is "because it works".
 
They use a trick as they impose periodic boundary conditions in the time direction. If you start out with no mass an no initial velocity you see that you come back to the same point in space and time.

Minkowski space isn't really curved in the geometrical sense. The "weirdness" comes from the fact that it has a different signature when you compare it with a Euclidean space.
 
You're lucky, the author of this website (A.T.) is a member of PF. He should be the one who explains it best.
 
Truth_Seeker said:
since the first moment I've started studying the theory of relativity i thought that the minkowski metric represents a flat spacetime (a 4D euclidean space) but while I was surfing the WWW , I arrived to an interactive applet the helps you visualise the idea of spacetime curvature is GR , here it is : http://www.adamtoons.de/physics/gravitation.swf
This is not Minkowski space-time (which is pseudo-Euclidean), but space-propertime (which is Euclidean). It is a slightly different type of diagram, or geometrical interpretation. Here is a simple version of it:
http://www.adamtoons.de/physics/relativity.swf

Truth_Seeker said:
in this applet when i putted the "spherical mass" bar to zero , it should have given me a flat spacetime ... i can see the flatness is space but i see a curved path in time ... shouldn't it be flat in both space and time ??!
A cylinder is flat in terms of intrinsic curvature. The extrinsic curvature you see doesn't affect someone living within the cylindric surface, that represents space-propertime .

However, it is important to understand about that visualization, that it is not a closed cylinder, but rather a multi layered roll of space-propertime. After each cycle you arrive at a new layer of the diagram.

Press the "Help" button for explanations.

Truth_Seeker said:
seeing this also made me remember an old question i had when i first started relativity , why do we use hyperbolic functions "sinh .. cosh ... etc" in the rotation equations of lorentz transformation instead of ordinary trigonometric functions ??
Well, that is how Minkowski space-time is defined, it is pseudo-Euclidean. That is why some things are better visualized with the Euclidean space-propertime.
 

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