Got my PGRE scores. What do I do from here?

[WarPhalange]

That's a good idea. Thanks.

 

[Reshma]

That's not my question. I went to a community college before transferring to a university, and my transcript from the current university lists a GPA only for those classes I took there, not counting any classes I took in community college, which included a year of physics and two years of math (all of my math, really). If I included those classes in my university GPA, it would go up quite a bit.

Most Graduate schools ask for the transcripts of the post-secondary courses i.e all courses after high school that you have taken. So even if you have switched to a different institute during your courses, I think you should also send transcripts of those courses as well. And since you have scored well in those classes, it will definitely help your applications.

Do the application people look over transcripts and figure this stuff out anyway, or if I list it as a 2.98 will they just dump it without taking a peak at why it is what it is?

I am international..so I don't know how GPA calculations from different classes are done. Just list the grades separately. I have also heard of many such urban legends that if your GPA and PGRE scores are below a certain "cut-off" they might trash your application (most universities do explicitly mention the GPA requirement though). But hoping that the Admission Committees don't work that way...they will take into account the other factors like recommendations, Research experiences, honours etc. otherwise they should not be asking for them in the first place if they only look at GPA and test scores.

And an update: new class grades are out and my physics GPA is a 3.04, with one class still not graded but I'm expecting > 3.0 in it.

List those as well as any awards, scholarships or special achievements that you have received during your degree.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Holy crap! I never thought I'd see this from you in this thread, but you actually did what I asked for in the title! Good job. See? That's what I needed. A "you can try this" and not "LOL YOU SUCK!11" Telling me "No, don't do that" isn't enough, because I am asking what to do, not what to not do.

You might want to lose the 'tude, bro.

Before you can dig yourself of the hole you've dug for yourself you need a realistic picture of where you are. Your problem is not that you might have to go to a Top 20 or even Top 30 school instead of a Top 10. That ship has sailed.

You finished somewhere around 1600th in the GRE. Around 1500 students are accepted annually. So your first problem is that 1600 > 1500. This might not be a problem if you had an above average GPA, but in fact, you don't. A 2.98 is not just below average, it's below the minimum at many - probably most - schools. Maybe stellar letters would make a difference, but you say yours are "so-so to good", which is below average among admits. So I'm afraid you've nailed the trifecta there.

The schools I listed would have been appropriate - if a bit of a stretch - had you got a 70% on the GRE. But you didn't. You need to look lower. I would say you'd be competitive somewhere around a school ranked 220 or 230 or so. The problem is that there are only 189 PhD granting institutions in the US.

You could look at PhDs.org and get a list of the bottom 10 or 20 schools. Those are your targets - and those are stretch schools.

I think there are two other questions you should be asking yourself. One is "why should a school take me and not someone with a better GRE score and a higher GPA?" I guarantee you that if you don't know the answer to that question, the admissions committee won't either.

The other one is "am I really ready for graduate school?" Is it possible that the GRE isn't a fluke, and the GPA isn't a five-year long fluke, and that you are really not prepared for grad school? If so, doesn't that suggest a different strategy? As you might guess, I am not impressed by the argument that you don't need to learn to do something that you can find on Google.

As far as the GPA goes, every application that I have ever seen asks the candidate to lits all previous schools, the degree earned (if any) and the GPA. So I don't think you have much flexibility there. Schools weigh later grades more heavily than early grades, and grades in pursuit of a degree more heavily than others. The fact that early grades will raise your GPA is positive, but the fact that it indicates a strong downward trend is quite negative.

As I alluded to before, I'm afraid you've dug yourself into quite a hole (and we didn't dig it for you). Denying you are in a hole is not going to help you dig yourself out of it. I'm sorry to have to tell you this.

 

[leright]

I think there are two other questions you should be asking yourself. One is "why should a school take me and not someone with a better GRE score and a higher GPA?" I guarantee you that if you don't know the answer to that question, the admissions committee won't either.

I want to echo what vanadium says here (and what I said previously in this thread). You need to try and come up with an answer to this question, and perhaps you can provide the answer in your personal statement or your advisors can provide the answer in their letters. You could also consider applying to masters programs, but these will not provide any funding. However, if you do well in the MS program then you could use it as a stepping stone for a PhD program.

 

[JasonJo]

I think V50 made some really great points here. No he did not sugarcoat it, but it's what you need to hear. You really should heed his words. From what I remember, he has been on actual graduate admissions committees and seems to have a very strong academic pedigree.

I am not one to step on people's dreams or anything like that. However, maybe you should start shifting your focus from top level physics programs to "lower" level physics programs.

(1) You can ask your professors for a list of more realistic schools that offer your research interests and perhaps have a more industrial flavor to their physics program.

(2) If you are really serious about getting into a good (I'm talking about top 50) physics program, you will probably need to start making changes. I think PhD candidates should be around a 3.5 GPA. You really need to be honest with yourself. Why didn't you get a 3.5? And then start fixing that.

Someone else said this before, either you didn't work hard enough or you weren't good enough. After 4-5 years of college, you should have an idea which is the real answer.

If you think you didn't work hard enough, then you have to get cracking with the books. You need to review Classical Physics I all the way to Quantum I and redo problems, and re-read lectures. This is what it takes when you aren't a supremely gifted student.

I'll share my own personal story. I bombed the GRE Math last year and got rejected from all the grad schools I applied to. I had 2 good letters and 1 mediocre letter (from a professor that I took 3 classes with, got 3 A's, but nothing more than that).

You can't blame the GRE. If you want to consider yourself at the level of a UCSB or a Michigan graduate student, you have to hold yourself to a certain standard. You have to demolish the GRE, PERIOD. There are no two ways about this. Even a lower ranked school, like in the 30-50 range, you still need to hold yourself to their standards. You just cannot make these excuses.

I came back for another semester and worked with my professors over the summer as well. I gave up my entire summer vacation, worked on 3 research projects with my professors. I did a lot better on my GRE Math (I reviewed like a mad man) and got tighter and cleaner with my study habits. It costs me a lot of time and money (around $3000 because my professors met with me and didn't make me register for credits) but I needed to get better. I really want to get my math PhD, and if that is what it took, that's what I was willing to do.

Also, you have to listen to what others are saying. A sub 3 GPA, or even a 3.33 GPA with a poor GRE score is just not a tier 1 student. But that does not mean you are totally done. It does mean that you have to see how badly you want this thing. Are you willing to work harder? Are you willing to review everything from start to finish? Are you willing to review every single day, quiz yourself on concepts, go over old homework solutions, etc?

I'm still a long way off from where I want to be as a student, but I only got better after I realized "Wow, I need to clean up my life, clean up my study habits and start looking at things in a brutally honest manner."

You seem to have the passion, but you have to hold yourself in check and realize when you messed up and realize you have a lot of work to do.

I'm sorry if this came off as rude, but I think what myself and many others have said are right on the money.

Edit: I would also like to just add a few more things.

I used to be very hung up on getting into a top 20/25 school. Now I have changed my tune. While it would be nice to get into a great school with a great rep, it's not the end of the world. Students like myself, we need to look for "bargains." For example, I found a nice number of schools that have professors who are well known in the fields I want to pursue but are not brand name schools (as in not Columbia, Harvard, MIT). I applied to 3 schools ranked in the 40-60 range by the NRC rankings and the US News World and Report that I would be very happy to attend. The thing that changed my tune to all this is that going to graduate school really is not something I am entitled to. It's really a privilege and any school that is willing to give me that opportunity to succeed I am will be grateful to. Again, I take a different perspective because I am not a hot shot student. I work hard and try to pursue my interests. Furthermore, why would you want to be somewhere that does not want you? This applies for anything, not just grad schools. Go where the faculty wants you as a student and is willing to help you succeed.

I believe that success in academia really consists of three things:
(1) Never giving up
(2) Working EXTREMELY hard (30-60 hours a week depending on the person and their goals)
(3) Finding people who will take a chance on you and give you a chance to succeed

Good luck with everything!

 

[will.c]

Furthermore, why would you want to be somewhere that does not want you? This applies for anything, not just grad schools. Go where the faculty wants you as a student and is willing to help you succeed.

I'd just like to mention that this is a very very good point - part of the reason that I didn't even apply to top-10 schools was, looking at my record, even if I'd gotten in, I would've been bottom of the stack. Where I am now, I feel like the faculty are as excited to be working with me as I am with them, and that's far better motivation than having to fight for attention against students who are objectively better prepared than you.

 

[Reshma]

Very nice points Vanadium50 and JasonJo, I couldn't agree more

Here is a nice link on the working of Graduate Admissions. Although it mainly pertains to the University of California, it does give the general picture.
http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/senate/committees/council/gradadmissions.pdf

 

[Troponin]

Really? Because the theme I see is:

"I don't have good grades, but like to learn. Which grad schools do I have a reasonable shot at?"

-"Jesus Christ you suck. Don't bother applying to Princeton or Berkeley."

"I asked 'What can I do now', not 'Can I go to Harvard?'"

-"Hey man, I'm just keeping it real. You suck at everything and you shouldn't apply to good schools. I don't know why you keep saying you will."


https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=279492

Vanadium has a knack for telling you that you suck without actually answering the question in the title of the thread. Why is that?

That's exactly the problem. If you're going to misconstrue every bit of constructive criticism, you're going to have a very difficult time in graduate school.

It seems that there is a fundamental lack of honest self-assessment from a lot of people.

If you love to study and feel that you understand your subject matter, then you shouldn't have a poor GPA. If you go into an exam with the feeling that you know the material, then you shouldn't receive a failing grade.

If you go into the PGRE with the feeling that you're going to get a certain score and you end up scoring well below that level, it is further evidence of poor self-assessment. You're going to have a hard time finding someone with more qualms about the American education system than me. There are many facets that I believe have faults.
But it is the only system there is in the U.S. and it is the system you must excel into reach the upper levels of academia. WarPhalange: I've read your thread on this subject. I see a thread where people give you these recommendations:
Stay in undergrad another year to boost your grades
Apply to an MS program
Re-take the PGRE with better preparation
They even give you recommendations of specific PhD programs you could apply to with your current statistics.

Your responses are:
The PGRE doesn't measure subject knowledge.
GPA and PGRE scores are completely unrelated
You've skipped so many classes that you can't even count anymore
A MS is a waste of your time
You can't stay at your current school because there is a bias against students staying there
I don't know what people can expect? Physics and Mathematics are difficult programs. The
student population in those programs are going to be very intelligent, even amongst the college student norm.
Worse, there isn't a ton of money in those fields. Students with intelligence looking for a payday are going to go on to medical school or law school, etc. The students that STAY in that field for graduate school are doing so with the knowledge that there isn't a lot of money...so they are doing because of their immense interest in the field.

So, what you end up with in grad applicants are a group of people much more intelligent than the average person, most likely much more intelligent than the average college student, probably more intelligent than the average graduate student in other programs, AND students driven by love of the material, not money or parental/social influence. The OP was given good advice in this thread. They were offered the following:
Ask yourself if you're certain you want to go to grad school.
Stay in undergrad a year to boost your GPA
Apply to an MS program.
Physics girl phd even offers advice on how to find FUNDING for an MS program, fellowships for teacher education programs, and even gave her personal thoughts on the benefits of an MS program in relation to other options. I can't imagine what more could be asked for?
The truth of the matter is that people are being rather kind, even in the "harsh" posts. Go to the Physicsgre website and look at the threads with people posting their "stats" and what schools they were accepted to. There are people with EXCELLENT resumes that are getting rejected from all the schools they've applied to.
Physics graduate programs are difficult to get into, to give advice to the contrary provides benefit to no one. My advice is to not ask for advice if you can't take constructive criticism.
My advice for the OP is to stay in undergrad for a year, retake courses to boost their GPA, fight for any research they can find and find a way to stand out from their peers in that research, study hard for the PGRE and make certain their score stands out in a good way.

 

[WarPhalange]

That's exactly the problem. If you're going to misconstrue every bit of constructive criticism...

WarPhalange: I've read your thread on this subject. I see a thread where people give you these recommendations:

Constructive criticism can go to hell when I am asking a different question. "You have poor grades. You should have gotten better grades." isn't constructive criticism. "You didn't study enough for the PGRE" isn't constructive criticism.

I was pointing to Vanadium's posts in particular, though. Other people gave me great advice and I do not want to make it look like I am crapping all over those people. I am very thankful for their help. But just like in this thread, all he does is tell me I can't do XYZ. Okay. "What can I do" is my question. But he still just keeps telling me that my grades are low and I shouldn't expect to go to Berkeley, after I said "I'm not looking at Berkeley anymore." That's not really helpful. Playing "guess and check" with him by asking "Could I get into this school?" and having him respond yes or no isn't a good way to spend my time.

edit: the one thing I would say is that there's a bit too much hyperbole on this site--i don't believe either of those posters expected top 20 phd programs or anything..i haven't looked at the other thread either but i think their eventual hopes were misinterpreted.

Yup. I didn't see anywhere in her original post that say she wants to go to a top 20 school. She just wants to know what her options are. Similarly, in my thread I said "I have no hope of Berkeley or Stanford. Are Santa Barbara and UM Ann Arbor still within reach?"

And the response I get is that I shouldn't even look at Berkeley? Come on.

 

[Troponin]

Constructive criticism can go to hell when I am asking a different question.

Do what is necessary to improve your GPA, PGRE, research and letters of recommendation until they're at a level commensurate with the graduate programs you are applying to.

If that isn't possible, find an MS program and perform well enough to make yourself a legitimate candidate for a PhD program at the completion of the MS curriculum.

 

[WarPhalange]

*sigh* Thank you for your help. But I don't want this thread to be about me. I already got a lot of help in my thread. I'm just trying to say that when someone asks a question and you tell them something completely different, don't act surprised and offended when they don't appreciate your "help".

 

[siddharth]

I was pointing to Vanadium's posts in particular, though. Other people gave me great advice and I do not want to make it look like I am crapping all over those people. I am very thankful for their help. But just like in this thread, all he does is tell me I can't do XYZ. Okay. "What can I do" is my question.

I think Vanadium gave plenty of specific responses to your questions. For example, he told you

The schools I listed would have been appropriate - if a bit of a stretch - had you got a 70% on the GRE. But you didn't. You need to look lower. I would say you'd be competitive somewhere around a school ranked 220 or 230 or so. The problem is that there are only 189 PhD granting institutions in the US.

You could look at PhDs.org and get a list of the bottom 10 or 20 schools. Those are your targets - and those are stretch schools.

I think there are two other questions you should be asking yourself. One is "why should a school take me and not someone with a better GRE score and a higher GPA?" I guarantee you that if you don't know the answer to that question, the admissions committee won't either.

So, I think you're unfairly accusing him.

*sigh* Thank you for your help. But I don't want this thread to be about me. I already got a lot of help in my thread. I'm just trying to say that when someone asks a question and you tell them something completely different, don't act surprised and offended when they don't appreciate your "help".

I understand that he might have sounded rude to you, but if you're going to ask for advice on the internet, I think one should expect brutally honest responses, irrespective of one's sensitivities.

That said, perhaps SchatzeDefect and you could stay back a year [in case you get all rejects. it happens :( ], or try for a MS degree before applying. If you're able to do research and perhaps publish your work in a peer-reviewed journal, it'll be great evidence for your potential for graduate research. Best of luck for your applications!

 

[JasonJo]

Just out of curiosity, what did you decide to do WarPhalange? Go for an MS? Apply for a PhD?

Hope all goes well, good luck.

 

[WarPhalange]

Sorry, been gone for a while. My school apparently has an exchange program with Germany, where I get to go to Giessen for a year as an undergrad, even if I'm a senior now. So I applied for that, since there are three spots for it and as far as I know only one other person has applied so far (deadline was last week).

Hah, but it doesn't matter. Why?

The schools I listed would have been appropriate - if a bit of a stretch - had you got a 70% on the GRE. But you didn't. You need to look lower. I would say you'd be competitive somewhere around a school ranked 220 or 230 or so. The problem is that there are only 189 PhD granting institutions in the US.

You could look at PhDs.org and get a list of the bottom 10 or 20 schools. Those are your targets - and those are stretch schools.

I think there are two other questions you should be asking yourself. One is "why should a school take me and not someone with a better GRE score and a higher GPA?" I guarantee you that if you don't know the answer to that question, the admissions committee won't either.

Then what say you to this:

You will of course note that this is the same email address I registered with here (EDIT: email edited out since enough people saw it already). Irvine isn't a tier one school, but by no means a bottom 20 school (in fact ranked top 30 in US News and World Report). Also they have pretty much everything I would be interested in, so that's a plus for me. This post here? This is just icing on the cake. It's a lot more fun to enjoy your accomplishments when you can also knock someone down a peg at the same time.

EDIT: Bah, made some weird splatters while editing image. Photobucket sucks for editing. =/

 

[cristo]

Congratulations.

Still, there's no need to try and "knock someone down a peg," since Vanadium's comments were quite sound as general guidance. Of course, there are always anomalies to a rule and I think, at least from what I've read in my time here about US grad applications, that yours fits into this category. Good luck with your grad studies!

 

[Gokul43201]

Couldn't help but crack a wee grin myself. All the best - be prepared to work a lot harder than you have so far.

 

[lubuntu]

Indeed, congrats WarPhalange, I've been following this thread and am very happy to see you got accepted!

 

[alligatorman]

Congrats. This thread is officially full of inspiration.

 

[clope023]

the o'rly of putin was funny as hell!

 

[j93]

Still, there's no need to try and "knock someone down a peg," since Vanadium's comments were quite sound as general guidance. Of course, there are always anomalies to a rule and I think, at least from what I've read in my time here about US grad applications, that yours fits into this category. Good luck with your grad studies!

His wording makes it appear that he is speaking gods words. He has never suggested that they even bother to apply. How are you supposed to be an anomaly if you don't even apply and are being discouraged to apply. He has earned his right to "knock down a peg".

 

[j93]

Warphalanage you might want to black out your e-mail from the letter

 

[alligatorman]

Warphalanage you might want to black out your e-mail from the letter

Agreed. It is very easy to find out who you are using your e-mail address.

 

[WarPhalange]

e-mail was to show that it is in fact me, and not a shooped email or from a friend. But sure, since people have seen it, I will black it out now.

Couldn't help but crack a wee grin myself. All the best - be prepared to work a lot harder than you have so far.

I don't doubt that for a second. I'm already working my *** off with a senior physics lab, lecture, and doing research + some English class which is only a blip on my workload screen.

But I'm looking forward to it. I enjoy what I'm doing now, even though it's hard and there is cussing involved, so as long as I enjoy it I know I will stick to it and see it through.

 

[JasonJo]

Wow congratulations! I am very happy for you, and I did have a big smile on my face as well. Best of luck WarPhalange!

 

[detunedradio]

His wording makes it appear that he is speaking gods words. He has never suggested that they even bother to apply. How are you supposed to be an anomaly if you don't even apply and are being discouraged to apply. He has earned his right to "knock down a peg".

Ha, yeah, all that "they will have to create new schools that are worse than the current worst schools in order for you to ever get in anywhere" stuff was a little overblown.

I got into UCI too, but WarPhalange's offer is way more awesome than mine in light of this thread. High five, dude.

 

[Brian_C]

I don't understand why some of the posters said he couldn't get accepted anywhere. If I remember correctly, he has around a 3.0 GPA and scored in the 50% percentile on the PGRE. Those aren't stellar credentials, but they're certainly acceptable for some schools.

Someone said that only a third of PGRE test takers end up in graduate school, but that's a very misleading statistic. I'm aware of many physics departments that don't even require a PGRE score. The other two-thirds of test takers aren't skipping grad school because their PGRE scores are too low.

 

[WarPhalange]

Some Engineers also take the PGRE to make it look better on their application I hear (from a friend who is majoring in mechanical engineering + dabbling in EE).

 

[j93]

There wouldn't be as many engineers taking it for that reason if they raised the percentage of quantum questions to 20% instead of 12%.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Congratulations, WarPhalange.

 

[calvinuk]

Ok, this really did make me chuckle.

Well played, sir, well played.

 

[Salviati]

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/8894/kaneklapqo6.gif

 

[Oerg]

oh WOW! What did you think made the difference? The 2 years research experience? anyhow, CONGRATS!

 

[atyy]

Wow, congratulations! May your work be correct and helpful to humanity!

 

[WarPhalange]

Congratulations, WarPhalange.

Thank you.